Untethered Consciousness

Now we live in a virtual reality.

This physical universe we call our
physical universe, I guess that's

our name for it, a physical universe.

It's a virtual reality.

It's information.

Remember, consciousness gets information
and takes that information and interprets

a reality from that information it gets.

My guest today is Tom Campbell, a
physicist, a lecturer author of the

only nonfiction trilogy that I've
ever read called My Big Toe, and I

believe a granddad many times over.

Tom, welcome and thanks so
much for coming on the show.

Thank you, Rod.

It's my pleasure to be here.

I was in Australia, what, 2017, I think,
something like that, and didn't spend as

much time there as I would have liked to.

Didn't get to see much, just went in,
did my thing, and we toured around just

a little bit in the Auckland area, and
then we had to go to the next stop.

So I'd like to get back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a bit of a trek from where
you are in the States, but

it's definitely worth coming.

So it's getting up to, we get,
we're just about to get into spring.

So it's, the weather's
starting to warm up a bit now.

All right.

So I read my big toe a, I
think it was a few years ago.

I think this is the 20th
anniversary for my big toes.

And it was written

It is.

Yeah.

And I've actually started rereading it
cause when you read books, they gradually

fade from memory, but it really did
start a whole exploration of things that

were paranormal, but just starting to
question reality and it was a really

a big leap in providing some sort of
tools and a framework to understand

consciousness that I'd never had before.

That was my introduction to who
you were and I've been following

your work ever since, so I'm really
happy to have you on the show.

So I'd like to start with a little
bit of background about your life that

led to you becoming interested in,
let's say, non physical reality and

developing a theory of everything and,
if in hindsight, did you have any other

earlier childhood experiences that might
have been indicated that there would be

more to come later in your adult life?

Yes, I came into this world
very much a right brain child.

Very intuitive.

I was my sister's bane and on long
trips because long trips in a car,

you know how it is with kids, 10
minutes, they say, are we there yet?

And it gets boring sitting in a car.

On long trips, I would just chant and
meditate and when my parents finally

got there, 5 or 6 hours later, it's
oh, I'd just gotten in the car.

I didn't notice that any time had passed.

So that was the kind of kid I was,
4 and 5 years old, 6 years old.

So I was very right brain coming in,
but I knew I had very definite push

that I needed to be left brained.

I needed to learn how to do logic,
learn how to make sense of things.

I was always had a pressure
to go that direction.

In school, I struggled with things
like math because they just didn't come

naturally to me, but I eventually overcame
that struggle, and eventually I got to

the point where math was easy, and I
struggled with physics, but I got to a

point where that was pretty easy too.

I went on for graduate degrees.

And became a physicist and sometime in
around year seven, seven years old, I'd

had lots of experiences in out of body.

I had some entities come and teach me how
to go out of body and take me, get me out

of body and then let me go play with it.

And then there were
other lessons to learn.

So I went through all
of that, but somewhere.

around seven and eight,
I guess more like eight.

I was told that I had to quit.

Couldn't do that anymore
because it wouldn't be good

for me to grow up weird.

I needed to grow up and be pretty
much like everybody else because

in our culture, when you're weird,
they do not nice things to you.

So that was my right brain ended
there, and not so much in the way

I thought, but in so much as the,
the going out of body all stopped.

All the paranormal things pretty much
stopped there, except I always had

a link with nonphysical beings who
would answer my questions and point

out things and, teach me things.

So that was always there.

And of course, I had no idea that it
wasn't always there for everybody.

I didn't know that, and I didn't
actually call it anything.

I didn't have a name for it.

There were just these presence, and
if I got in a jam of some sort, I

could always ask them, and they would
give me some very helpful answers.

So I trusted them implicitly.

And let's see.

I got to college, majored in
physics, went to graduate school.

While I was in graduate school, I
learned how to meditate, not because

I thought meditation was, it's such
a neat idea, but because the ad for

meditation said that if you learn to
meditate, you could get by on less sleep.

And I was in graduate school and working
on a big Van de Graaff accelerator.

And when that machine was
working, you stayed with it as

long as you were taking data.

Which means you might have to
stay up for two or three days

in a row without sleeping.

Because your machine was taking
data and you don't say let's turn

it off and come back in the morning.

It doesn't work like that.

If you turned it off, there's about a 50,
50 chance that it wouldn't turn on in the

morning, and that would be the end of it.

Your experiment was over.

In any case, I learned to meditate.

And shortly after learning to meditate,
I just found out because I'm curious and

I tried that I could debug my software.

All the software that I was using
to do the physics that had to do

with the experiments I was doing.

I could debug that software in my mind.

And that was a huge breakthrough because
this is the bad old days of punch

cards, and debugging software was hard.

There weren't any debuggers.

The computer didn't give you any
hints why your job didn't run, other

than, sorry, your job didn't run.

That's it.

And it wasn't only errors that I made, but
key punchers themselves would sometimes

punch a hole just slightly off center,
and the card reader wouldn't read it.

So there were those
kinds of errors as well.

And I could find them in my
mind, just by mental effort.

Oh, such and such a card has a problem.

And I'd look at it and say
well, I don't see any problem.

And it turned out there'd be a...

key punch hole error
in that, on that card.

So it wasn't that it was coming out of my
subconscious that somehow I really knew I

had made a mistake on those lines of code
and I was just getting it out of my mind.

I knew that this was something
beyond the physical and here I am a

physicist and to my mind if you can't
measure It either isn't real or it

isn't important, that's called an
operational definition of reality.

And by measure it I mean if
you can't interact with it.

If it isn't something that you can
interact with not necessarily physically

but with your tools, you know with your
beams and Microscopes or telescopes that

you can't interact with it in any way
then it's it doesn't necessarily exist.

And if it does, it's not relevant
because you can't interact with it.

That's the way physicists
mostly see the world.

And that leads to thinking all
the things that are subjective are

all just things imagined in mind.

There isn't any real substance to
them because you can't measure them.

Therefore, they don't really exist.

That's not a very satisfactory attitude,
but as a physicist, I never noticed that

wasn't a very satisfactory attitude.

It seemed like that was all right.

So anyway this thing with being
able to debug software was like

a, big swift kick in the pants in
the sense that I'm a physicist.

What I do is model reality, and there
was a whole nother part of reality

that I didn't know anything about.

But I knew it existed and I knew it was
real because I didn't doubt my experience.

It's not like I did this once
and could have been a dream.

I did this.

I debugged, day after
day, month after month.

And this worked fine for me.

So it was just a tool I had that was not
explainable by the physical in any way.

So that's my early
experience that led me here.

Then eventually I get
out of graduate school.

I go to work.

And I run into Bob Monroe,
that's a longer story.

We can go there if you like, but I run
into Bob Monroe and Bob had maybe some,

all your listeners don't know Bob Monroe.

He wrote books, Journeys Out of the
Body, Far Journeys, and Ultimate Journey.

It was about his out of body experiences.

And when I met him, I wanted
to know, is this guy just

making this stuff up or what?

And it turned out he wasn't making any
of it up, and he had built a laboratory.

It was just a building that
was going to be a laboratory.

Didn't have anything in it,
didn't have any equipment.

Had three isolation booths in it,
and that's as far as he'd gotten.

He was looking for some scientists to
help him set up and actually create

a laboratory to study consciousness.

Because he was, he had a
mindset more like an engineer.

He wanted to understand
what was happening to him.

He was wealthy, so he
wasn't trying to sell books.

The income he got from books
wasn't a half of 1% of his income.

That obviously had nothing to do with it.

I started working then with
Bob in that laboratory for

about 15 to 20 hours a week.

Pretty much almost half time.

And I did that for probably
six or seven years.

So that's a half time job for six or
seven years, that's a lot of hours.

And my deal with Bob was that I would
be a free scientist if he would be a

free teacher of how to go out of body.

Because I knew that if it wasn't my
experience, then it couldn't be my truth.

It couldn't be something
I really understood.

You have to experience
things before you own them.

If you just read about it or hear about
it or have somebody else tell you about

it, it's just not really entirely real.

When you do it, it's real.

So that was the deal.

And we'd go myself and Dennis Mennerich,
an electrical engineer that I worked

with also met Bob the same time I did.

So we went out to see Bob like I say,
for maybe six years or so, maybe a

little more and he taught us both how
to go out of body and we wanted to

prove to ourselves that this wasn't
just something we were making up.

So we only wanted to do
things that were evidential.

Now, evidential means that you
get, gather information that

you have no idea what it is.

You have no way of
knowing what it will be.

But there is an answer, you can find
out, you can look it up someplace.

That's evidential.

So we did a lot of remote viewing, we
did healing, we did all the paranormal

things, just to see if it worked.

And if it worked, not just
every once in a while randomly,

but what were the variables?

Why did it work?

Why did it work better
sometimes than other times?

And being the physicist, I was
in charge of figuring out theory,

understanding the theory of how it worked.

So that was where my mind was.

How does this work?

Why does it work?

What's the point?

And what I did is I started to do physics
experiments while I was out of body.

And by that, what I mean is I do these
paranormal things that were evidential.

And then I change a variable and do
them again and see what effect did

that variable have on my ability
to perform the paranormal thing.

And then I, do a different variable and
all of that's very tedious work, but

most of science is very tedious work.

And, about 35 years later of
doing these experiments, I thought

I understood consciousness.

And I wrote the books, My Big
Toe, basically as a theory and

understanding of consciousness.

Of consciousness, and it was based
on the facts I've learned about

consciousness from an out of body
state, which is what makes me unique.

There's very few physicists in
this world, if any, besides me,

who have that sort of facility.

In the larger consciousness system,
out of body, I hate to say out

of body because you didn't get,
you don't get out of your body.

That's just a, not a very good metaphor,
but that's what everybody understands.

I use the term anyway, you're not in
your body, but anyway, a physicist that

understands the physics and understands
consciousness from the outside.

So that led me to eventually,
after I published the books, a

few years after, to realize that
I could derive a better physics.

A more general what more capable
physics from consciousness.

Just take the things that
consciousness said, the way this

is how the world needs to be.

This is how reality needs to be to
support my facts of consciousness, that

I could take those facts of consciousness
and actually derive quantum physics.

And derive relativity, first principles.

Now that's something that
the physicists can't do.

Because relativity has this big unknown.

They don't know why the speed
of light needs to be a constant.

That's a key thing.

Once you understand that c, speed of
light, is a constant, then special

relativity is just a little algebra.

That's the main idea that makes
relativity, is that c is a constant.

So I could understand that
easily why c was a constant.

And with quantum physics, they
get stuck on not being able to

comprehend why reality should
be probabilistic, not material.

If you, in quantum physics, if you
assume that things are material,

like if you assume an electron's a
little chunk of mass with a charge,

you can't get any right answers
because that's not what it is.

It doesn't work that way.

It's a protoparticle.

It's probability.

It doesn't actually exist
until a measurement's made.

And then they have this thing they
say in physics that the probability

wave function collapses when the
measurement is made, and the probability

function becomes a physical particle.

That's nonsense.

How does a piece of
mathematics, a probability,

turn into a physical particle?

Because you make the measurement.

So that's the big mystery underlying
quantum physics, and why quantum

physics is referred to as weird
physics, because it has this...

This weird aspect to it, and physicists
have no clue what that means or how

that works or why it's that way.

And I can derive from first
principles exactly why it has to

be that way from consciousness.

So then I started looking at
a lot of other things that

were paradoxes in physics.

There's lots of paradoxes in physics.

And, some of those are very obvious.

Ask a physicist where time comes from.

And he won't know.

Ask him where mass comes
from, and he won't know.

Ask him where space comes
from, and he won't know.

All the basic things that physicists
work with every day, and all of their

physics is based on these things, they
have no idea where those things come from.

The physicists will just say
well, they are because they are.

That's not science.

Yeah, that's a, not a
good scientific answer.

And then there's other things like
there's if you ever listen to a Rupert

Sheldrake's something like 10 problems
with physics, it got yanked off of TED

Talks because it was pseudoscience.

It wasn't pseudoscience.

It was good science, and all 10
of those things are things that

are all paradoxes in physics.

Things that physics knows are
there that way, but they don't

know why they're that way.

And one of them was the speed of
light actually does change a little

bit from time to time, but only in,
let's say, the ninth decimal place.

Just changes just a little tiny bit.

It's been recorded now like
four times that it's changed.

And I can explain that very
easily, why that happens.

And there are a set of constants.

We just call them cosmic constants
because they're big picture constants.

And if any one of those constants
changed, even in the ninth decimal place,

the whole universe would go unstable.

I think it's called the anthropic
principle or something like that.

The idea is it looks like these constants
we're all, what can we say all honed

to be what they are together, like they
only work as a set, because if any one

of those constants, I think there's
five of them, if any one of those

constants changed in the ninth decimal
place, the universe would be unstable.

So it's real important that all
those constants be exactly the

way they are out to nine decimal
places to keep this place stable.

That looks like that was a plan.

What's the probability
that happened randomly?

Oh, just randomly, they all were exactly
what they needed to be to nine decimal

places, and of course, that's silly.

That doesn't happen randomly.

And I can explain exactly
why that had to happen.

So on it goes.

There's lots of these paradoxes
that exist and this model of mine of

physics answers them all very clearly.

And my model doesn't have any
strange assumptions in it.

The only assumption really is
consciousness exists, and I don't, after

that, I just derive logically, mostly
deductively, what happens until I end

up with consciousness and how it works.

So anyhow, that's the real short over
the top story of what it is I've done.

I guess one other thing I would add
is that this model not only produced

a better physics, but it also produced
an understanding, a scientific

explanation for the subjective world.

So now there's a science of the subjective
as well as the science of the objective.

The science of the objective
world we call physics.

Physics, chemistry, biology, those are
all sciences of the objective world.

But this science of the subjective
world tells us about us.

If you're unhappy and
miserable, it'll tell you why.

What's the point?

What's missing?

And what you need to do to change that?

So it's the understanding the subjective
experiences in our life, and of course,

from my viewpoint, opposite of a physicist
viewpoint now is that it's the subjective

world is where all the importance is.

That's where all the meat of life is.

That's where, the objective
world is just the stuff.

It's like the settings on the stage.

It's just the stuff, your house,
your car, your clothes, your body,

that's all the physical stuff.

But the subjective world is
where all the importance is.

It's about love and caring and sharing
and friendliness and justice and all the

things, that make your life important.

Who do you marry?

How many children do you have?

These are all subjective decisions.

You can't make any of those objectively.

They're all subjective.

All of that is part of
the subjective world.

And, in my mind, the subjective world
is just a whole lot more meaningful and

significant than the objective world.

Who goes to a play to watch the
the stage and all the props.

That's the objective stuff.

You go to a play, not to watch the
props, you go to a play because of

what's going on in the minds of the
actors and the characters they're playing

and the interactions between those
characters and the story they tell.

And that's all subjective.

That's all subjective.

Okay, that's my one over the
top, so everybody knows a little

bit of who Tom Campbell is.

He's a weird physicist who has written
My Big Toe, and I have a website, and I

have about a thousand videos on YouTube,
in case you're interested, but other

than that, I'm open for questions,
Rod, whatever you'd like to ask.

Okay.

Well the first one was my understanding
of consciousness is it's fundamental.

So everything springs from consciousness.

Could you give us like a, just for
the lay person, your understanding

of what consciousness is?

Okay, I can define
consciousness just very simply.

Consciousness is awareness with a choice.

That's what a four word definition.

Yeah.

So if we start from the beginning, so
there was consciousness and it always

had awareness or then awareness became,
and then choices started to be made, no?

When I start with consciousness
exists, that's an assumption.

It already has awareness,
but a very dim awareness.

You know how biologists, if you give
them a living cell, they will derive

all the rest of the things that
are on our planet that are living.

Just give them one living cell, and
they will take that and show you

how that cell evolved into all the
plants and animals and creatures

and things that are alive here.

Okay, it started with like single celled
things, bacteria, and then they got more

complicated like amoebas and, amoebas
have parts and so on and it evolved up

until finally, you get all the creatures
we have there, including ourselves.

So a biologist can tell you that
story, but he has to start with a cell.

He can't tell you where
that first cell came from.

Now, he can do some hand waving and he can
say if there were some right kind of amino

acids and the right sort of this and that,
and a little bit of electricity like from

lightning or static electricity, ah, that
might've started that, that first cell.

So the hand waving is a physics
term for means it's not hard facts.

It's conjecture.

So they can wave their hands in the
air and come up with some conjecture

of where that first cell came from.

And they can even duplicate it in their
labs, get the right stuff together,

put a little spark through it.

And yeah, they get something that
resembles a living cell that maybe they

could work with, so I'm the same way.

I start with the most minimal piece
of consciousness, and that minimal

piece of consciousness then is a
thing that is aware, but it's only

aware of the fact that it exists.

And it can be in state A or state B,
because consciousness has a choice.

So if it was just in state
A, then there wouldn't be any

choice for the consciousness.

So the minimalist thing for a
consciousness is it has to be, it

can be between state A or state B.

And that's it.

And it can change from state A to B,
state B to A, and that's all it is.

That's the, you can think of that as
a a consciousness cell, if you like,

like instead of a biological cell.

And from there, I show logically how
it would evolve, how it had to evolve.

And basically that evolutionary process
takes that up through what it is today.

Which is, I call the larger
consciousness system.

And we, you and I, and all the rest
of the people, and dogs and cats

around here, are subsets of that.

We're pieces of that consciousness.

I call those individuated
units of consciousness.

And that's what we are.

Consciousness is fundamental.

And it starts with consciousness.

Now, it might seem to some of your
listeners that it's a logical flaw that

a start with just consciousness exists.

Okay, now just like the biologist,
I can give a conjecture answer to

where that consciousness came from.

And some other people have come
up with similar conjecture.

I've seen it at Stanford University,
I believe it was in the philosophy

department and look up automata,
cellular automata, and you'll find, I

don't know, probably a hundred pages
of it, but you'll find one section of

it where they deal with consciousness.

There's hand waving conjecture
that you can deal, but it's

not a failure to not know it.

Because the reason we can't know it is
because we are pieces of consciousness.

We are consciousness and you can't know,
you can't experience, you can't have

first hand knowledge of what it is that
you are, what it is that created you.

Babies don't watch themselves being born.

It's just a process and later they grow
up and say, oh, okay, I was born one,

you know, in the, in the past and they
understand it and they realize it, but

it's not an experience necessarily that
they have or one that they remember.

That's not a great example, but
the thing is that if you are

consciousness, you can't get outside
of consciousness to look back at

consciousness, with a objective view.

Hmm.

You know, You can't do it.

You're in it.

So you can't get outside of
yourself to look back at it and

say, ah, okay, I can see now.

Oh, look, I see where it came from.

That has to be from a view
that's outside of consciousness.

We can't get outside of consciousness
because we are consciousness.

So therefore that where did it start?

It's not a fault that you don't know.

You logically can't know.

That's an unknowable.

The best you'll ever be able to do is
wave your hands and come up with some

conjecture because we can't get outside
of what we are in order to see how

that happened in order to get some idea
of where that might have come from.

So that's not a flaw.

It's just a kind of a logical fact that
we won't know that those biologists will

never know for sure where that first cell
came from, unless they can get outside

of that experience and watch it happen.

See how that happened.

But there isn't any memory.

There aren't any written records.

There isn't any way for them to do that.

And so they'll never know for sure.

All they can do is come up
with reasonable conjecture.

But it'll never be certain.

And it's the same with consciousness.

It'll never be certain exactly where
that consciousness cell came from.

But let me have that one cell.

And that's not a huge assumption
because we're conscious, you and I,

and all the people listening to this
are conscious, we have consciousness.

So that consciousness exists is not a
real bender as far as an assumption goes.

It's about as obvious assumption
that as you can imagine.

So that's where I started from.

And the rest of this is just
consciousness evolution.

And it's not a model that says well,
consciousness could have evolved this way.

It's consciousness had to evolve this way.

So I don't go off into those little
details that it could have done

this or could have done that.

I stay with the basics
of what it had to do.

So the model is based on the
way consciousness had to evolve.

Didn't have other choices.

This was its only path of evolution.

Now, with biology, that path of
evolution is defined by an ability

to procreate and survive, right?

If you can't procreate and survive,
eventually you'll disappear

from that evolutionary system.

Consciousness is to lower entropy.

And entropy is a science word,
but it's not all that scary.

It's just a measure of disorder.

And I model consciousness
as an information system.

Which makes sense.

What is it?

What are we conscious of?

We're conscious of the data that
we collect with our five senses.

That's what we're conscious of.

That's the input data.

We take that data and we look at it
and interpret it to be this reality.

So our reality is based on us
interpreting data that we receive.

We get data, we do processing on that
data and we say, oh, there's a fish,

there's a dog, there's a house, there's
my mother, and we learn what all these

things are and what their names are.

But that's because we learn
that from after we're born.

So we learn how to interpret the data.

So consciousness is an information system
because it gets information and comes to

some kinds of conclusions and attitudes
based on the information it gets.

Same as any information system.

So think of an information system
where all the bits are random.

Now a bit is not really a science word.

It's just the definition of the
smallest piece of information possible.

That's a bit.

So if you work information down to the
smallest possible piece, that's a bit.

So let's say you have a system
and all the bits are random.

If all the bits are random,
there is no information.

They're all just random bits.

But if you take some of those
bits and order them, which

lowers their entropy, right?

Entropy is a measure of disorder.

All random is highest disorder.

If you can order those bits, which
lowers their entropy, then those

ordered bits can mean something.

You can give them, they could
be a symbol of something.

It could be the, a number.

It could be the number two.

This way and that way,
state A and state B.

It could stand for things,
but you have to make order.

There's no information
until you order the bits.

Entropy is a measure.

How entropy gets lowered is a
measure of how consciousness evolves.

Consciousness isn't about
survival and procreation.

Consciousness is about lowering entropy.

That's its motivator to evolve.

So it makes maybe a pattern with
those bits, and then maybe it

makes patterns of patterns, or
all kinds of different patterns.

And then eventually it takes two
of those bits and just lets them

oscillate, A, B, A, B, A, B, 0.

And when it does that,
it's created a metronome.

Now it has regular time.

And if it has regular time, it can also
create sequences of patterns of sequences.

As much complication as it can.

So as the things get more
ordered, they get more complex.

They get more useful because
all those things can...

And one of the very first things
it would learn would be arithmetic,

would be quantity, because each
little piece of ordered bits is a

thing, and then here's another thing.

Oh, one thing plus another
thing is two things.

And the simple concepts of logic
of quantity, which is what math is,

it's just the logic of quantity.

That would be one of the first
things that it would understand.

So it would be natural for it to
develop a sense of mathematics

and quantity, and number.

Okay, so in any case, that's
what drives consciousness.

So I can show that the system would
go through a series of lowering

entropy quickly, and then not so
much a plateau where it's stuck.

It's still lowering entropy, it's
just not as quickly as it had before.

And then it comes up
with another invention.

Ah, like time.

Time was an invention.

Okay, now it can do sequences.

So it starts to have more novel things
that it can do and ways that it can order.

And then the last big breakthrough for it
was that it could take pieces of itself

and those pieces would all have free
will because consciousness has free will.

And I'll mention that in
a little bit why that is.

And these pieces of free will
then can interact with each other.

As soon as you create bunches of
things with free will, as time

goes by, they start to diverge.

They don't have the same experience.

They have different experiences.

So they have different opinions
and different thoughts about

what they want to do today.

So then the interactions, each one of
these things, the invention of time

and the invention of breaking itself
up into pieces with free will, these

things create more possibilities the way
things can go together to lower entropy.

It makes the system not only bigger,
but smarter and more capable.

It grows, it evolves
just like with people.

You go to the 1 cell thing, bacteria to
multi cell things to jellyfish to frogs,

to lizards and eventually to to people.

Every step of that evolution
makes things more complicated.

There's more order.

There's more structure.

Here we are human beings and
we've got what 4 trillion cells

that are all working together,
cooperatively to make a human being.

So that's a lot of order going on there.

So actually it turns out
that the biological evolution

follows the same thing.

It's really lowering entropy as well.

It's that's what works.

It lowers entropy, but in its system,
low entropy configurations are more

survivable because they're more complex.

They're more adjustable.

There's more things they can
do, and they procreate better.

Again, there's more options for
them and ways they can do things.

They're not limited to just a
certain small set of possibilities.

They have lots of possibilities,
which give them more abilities to

procreate and to survive because
they have options that they didn't

have before with that ordering.

So it's the same with consciousness.

So that's basically my model.

So now if you believe that biology,
the evolution of biological evolution,

if you think that's a science,
then what I have is a science.

It's just as much a science as biology is.

Because what it does is once you
understand how these, how this thing

evolved, you get a lot of facts that
otherwise aren't clear, like biology

if you look at look at a what we call
it the dolphin, look at a dolphin

and and you look at a dolphin's fin.

Guess what you'll find in there?

You'll have bones that
look just like that.

It's like the bones are like a hand.

It's got fingers.

The fingers have joints, so they can
move, but these fingers aren't moving.

It's part of a fin, but yet there's the
hand with all the individual fingers and

all the finger joints for for motion.

And that tells you, that's a fact.

And if you didn't have evolution or
biology, it'd be one of those paradoxes.

Why does that animal have
hand bones in its fin?

Oh that animal probably was a land
animal before it became a sea animal.

That evolution can work both ways.

Sometimes the sea was a better
source of food than was the land.

Critters move to where the food is.

In any case it solves paradoxes
because you understand the fundamentals

of how the system was built.

What were the rules that it was built on?

And mine is the same way.

So mine is a science.

It solves a lot of paradoxes.

Answers a lot of questions.

And as far as I can tell, there isn't
anything that it can't really explain.

So it really is a theory of everything,
including the subjective world.

They say, why are these people happy
and those people are miserable?

It can say what it is about them
that's created both the happiness and

the misery, boils down to, to really
an understanding of a lot of things.

You can derive a moral code.

Philosophers have tried evolving
a moral code for many centuries

and they always failed.

I think the last one that was really
pretty good was Spinoza, a Spanish

philosopher and his moral code had flaws
in it, like all the rest, because people

could always come up if you follow this
code, you'll always make the right choice.

The good choice, the moral choice.

But you can always come up with
some scenario it doesn't work in.

Yeah, but what if, and you can come
and maybe really a obtuse 1 in a

million kind of scenario, but there
are scenarios that it just doesn't fit.

The code is not universal.

It does explain a whole lot of
what's right and what's wrong,

and what's moral and what's not,
but it doesn't cover everything.

It's not universal.

It's got flaws in it.

This code of mine does define
what's right and wrong.

In the long term, if what you do,
the actions you take, the intents

you have, lowers entropy for both
yourself and the system, that's right.

And if what you do and intend increases
entropy in the long term for both

yourself and the system, that's wrong.

So it's just simple.

It all reduces to entropy.

Love can be defined as the nature of a low
entropy individual, a low entropy entity.

That's love.

And the fear is the opposite of love.

That may strike people as being odd
because they think love and hate are

the opposites, but that's not it.

There's something more fundamental
than hate, and that is fear.

Hate is born out of fear.

In any case, it explains, on the
soft side, it explains philosophy.

There's a philosophy
called what is it now?

There's realism, which is basically what
the physicists believe, and that is if

you can't measure it, it's not real.

Everything that, out there that you
see, that's just the way it is, and

there isn't anything else but that.

And then there's the opposite of
that, which is called idealism.

And idealism, Is the sense there is
something beyond what you see and what

you feel out there in the world that is
more fundamental and that's an old idea.

Remember the allegory of the men in the
cave that Plato came up with, and he was

telling them that there's a fire behind
them and they're looking at shadows

on the wall of the cave and they think
that's all reality is the shadows.

Because these people have
never, they can't turn around

and see what's behind them.

But there's another
whole world behind them.

The fire and the people who tend
the fire and where the firewood

came from, all of that is tended by
something outside of their reality.

And their reality is just as
limited to the shadows on the wall.

And yes, they can move
and the shadows will move.

So they identify with the
shadows as being who they are.

So that was Plato and he was an
idealist and many of the best

philosophers through history have
been idealists, I think was one of

the last big names was probably Kant.

He was An idealist, but in any
case, that argument between idealism

and realism has been going on for
millennia, and now it's solved.

Basically with the double slit
experiment, it was solved.

And that is, it's not matter,
matter is not fundamental, what's

fundamental is probabilistic, that's
math, that's not anything physical.

In that point, that argument was done.

It turns out the idealists were right.

There is something behind
the physical, otherwise.

Physical particles would not
be based on, that means they

come from, probability waves.

That wouldn't work that way.

And, you know, in our science, all
the tiny little particles are what

built or what are used to build bigger
particles and bigger particles that we

get the kind of mass that we're used to.

But it's all built from the bottoms up
out of these little subatomic particles

that are nothing but probability.

So that tells you that mass isn't
the thing that is fundamental.

You might say probability is fundamental,
but that doesn't really make any sense.

Probability is just a mathematics.

It's just the way of looking at certain
parts of quantity that some things

are more or less probable than others.

But as it turns out, consciousness
Is what is fundamental, the thing

that everything else is built out of.

Okay.

So I'd like to go back a little bit
to your time at the Monroe Institute

because I'm fascinated by the work
that he's done and read Bob's books.

So during that time you learned how to
experience or visit different realities

other than our current one, which
is the PMR, physical matter reality.

I've got that right.

Yeah.

was the most interesting alternative
reality that you visited during that

time or even since then, actually?

There are a lot of alternative realities,

and there's all sorts of
virtual realities out there.

I guess we ought to talk
about virtual realities.

Virtual realities are realities that
are created by a rule set, okay?

If you play The Sims, that's a virtual
reality, and it's created by a rule

set of what the players can do.

There's certain things they can do,
and certain things they can't do.

So if you, if they have a swimming
pool and somebody goes around, pulls

up all the ladders they can't get
out because the rules are that they

can't get out unless there's a ladder.

That's not the way it works in
our universe, but that's the

way it works in the Sims world.

At least that's the way it did
work when my youngest daughter

pulled all the ladders out and in
order to get gravestones in her

front yard, because that was cool.

So anyway, I digress, but a virtual
reality is made based on rules.

The rules that say what people can
do and can't, it's the rules of

causality basically is what made up.

Now we live in a virtual reality.

This physical universe we call our
physical universe, I guess that's

our name for it, a physical universe.

It's a virtual reality.

It's information.

Remember, consciousness gets information
and takes that information and interprets

a reality from that information it gets.

So each of us is a piece of consciousness
getting a data stream from the larger

consciousness system, and we interpret
it to be this physical universe.

Alright, now that's not the
only virtual reality in town.

There's lots of other virtual realities.

There's others like ours, what
we call the physical universe,

that have a very tight rule set.

Now our rule set is what we call science.

It's physics, it's
chemistry, it's biology.

Those are the rules of
how things can work.

There's a physical causality defines
what we can do and what we can't do.

A human being can't flap
its hands and fly away.

It also can't jump 20 feet in the
air, there's things we just can't do

because the rules just won't allow it.

We're too heavy, too much gravity,
we're not made, we can't flap

our arms fast enough and etc.

We have to obey the rules.

We get hit in the head with something
serious to give us brain damage, then

maybe we slur our speech, we drag
our left foot and lose our memory.

But that doesn't affect consciousness
any, that just means that now

that piece of consciousness has to
deal with an avatar with damage.

Has to deal with an avatar.

Same in Sims.

If your Sims character gets damaged,
then you just have to deal with a

damaged Sims character until they
heal, until they get over the damage,

you have to deal with the damage.

So it that works the same way.

Now, there are also very loose rulesets,
where you have a lot more leeway.

You don't have...

Every tiny interaction, part of a
rule, like it is here with the physics.

Like your dream reality.

When you dream, you're basically
interacting in a different reality frame.

When you daydream, you're
creating a virtual reality.

You're consciousness, and you can create
virtual realities in your own daydream.

And you do that only when your intellect
is no longer feeding the daydream.

You might start your daydream with
your intellect, but eventually if

you just let that daydream just go
on and let it unravel as it does

without you making everything happen,
then you're creating a virtual

reality from your own consciousness.

Consciousness can do that sort of thing.

Just wee little pieces of consciousness
can do pretty much everything

the big consciousness can do.

We just can't do it as
much, as well, as fast.

We're small pieces.

We're just little pieces of this
consciousness so we don't have all the

abilities of the system, but we have most
of the same attributes as the system.

So yes, when you fall asleep at night,
you get a different data stream.

And that data stream has a loose rule
set, and in your dreams you can teleport,

you can disappear one place, appear
someplace else, things can come and

go in a hurry, and it doesn't have to
make sense as far as, doesn't have to

be like it is here, in what we call the
physical world, because it's a different

virtual reality with different rules.

There's a different virtual reality
you go to after you die, and you're

no longer in this physical universe.

You end up in another virtual reality.

There's literally just hundreds
of virtual realities that are

defined for one purpose or another.

And there are, I wouldn't say
hundreds, but there's at least some

virtual realities that are just as
tight a rule set as we have here.

Other worlds like our physical
universe, but it's a physical

universe, but not like ours.

What makes it physical is the fact that it
has a very tight rule set, lots of rules.

Every little tiny thing
has to follow the rules.

There are, I've been to several,
probably 5, 6, 8, 10, I don't

know, over the many years.

I've been doing this now for 50 years
and I've been to quite a few of those

virtual realities that are physical and
they have beings not always like us.

They mostly end up to be
bipeds, but not always.

Sometimes there's other things that
aren't like us at all that evolve.

But more often than not, they are like us,
and their physics there is like ours too.

And the reason for that is that
it's hard to get a rule set that

will create a stable universe.

Remember, I mentioned all those constants
that had to be just so to nine decimal

places to get a stable universe.

It's not like you can
just do that real easily.

That's a lot of trouble.

So the same ones that work
there, tend to work elsewhere.

So yeah, they have gravity, just like we
have gravity, that's one of the rules.

They have a lot of the things we have
because it's hard to make a virtual

reality that will evolve for billions
of years and not have it self destruct.

So it ends up that a lot of
the things are similar because

the system uses what works.

Besides the system that's
a information system.

It's a lot easier to say, copy, paste,
and now you have three other virtual

realities that are based on the same
building blocks as the first one.

That's just simple.

It's easy to do.

You don't always have
to start from scratch.

If you spent you know, 10, 000 tries
trying to get all those constants just

right, you don't have to do that again.

You can just start from what you've got.

Some of it's similar.

I've been to places that have been a lot
uglier and meaner than what we have here.

And I've been to places, and let's
just say less evolved than we are here.

And I've been to places that, one,
one place, it was a little more

evolved than what we have here,
but mostly they're less evolved.

We're one of the high end believe
it or not with all the dysfunction

we've got in our world, you'd think
we're on the bottom, but we're not.

We've got a lot of potential here
that the others haven't yet gotten to.

Now, another thing I should put in
here is that, so what is our purpose?

What are we supposed to do and why are we
here playing in this virtual reality game?

We are individuated
units of consciousness.

And in order to evolve, we make choices.

That's definition of consciousness.

It's awareness with a choice.

So the choices we were making
when we didn't have this physical

reality full of avatars were
like being in a big chat room.

The first virtual reality was
communication protocols, and

that just defined language.

That's a rule set, defined language.

Okay, all these individual units of
consciousness in the system could

all chit chat with each other because
there was a virtual reality that

gave it communication protocols.

But there wasn't a lot of experience that
was really meaningful and challenging.

It's just a big chat room
with almost no rules.

So you could pretty much do
anything and that was okay.

Not a lot of great consequences
for the choices that you made.

So the system needed to make
another virtual reality that was

more a tighter rule set because the
tighter the rule set is, the more

consequences you create, right?

The more strategies you create.

In other words, let me
make that a little clearer.

If you and I, if I said,
okay, Rod let's play a game.

Okay.

You go first.

You wouldn't know what to do
because we don't have any rules,

you'd say I get what you mean.

I go first.

There's no rules because there's no rules.

There's no game.

The game is made with rules.

Now, the rules could be real loose.

This is just high card.

You pick a card and I'll pick a card
and the winner has the high card.

That's real simple.

Simple rules.

You don't have much strategy.

There's not much you can do about that.

You're just picking a card.

It's just random stuff.

But if you have real complex rules, oh,
this character can only move sideways for

three slots, and this one can only move
back and forth, and this one can do that.

And you've got all these rules.

Now you have something that has...

strategy.

You can figure out what to do and what
to do next and what's good and what's not

good move and suddenly there's all kinds
of complexity involved in the experience

of interacting with that rule set.

So the consciousness said we need
a tighter rule set rather than

just communication protocols.

So the consciousness can
experience meaningful consequences.

So it can learn and it can grow.

How does consciousness learn?

It learns how to lower its entropy.

That's what it's all about.

That's what drives us.

That's our mission.

That's what we're about is to lower
the entropy of our consciousness.

And when we do that, the whole
system's entropy is lowered a little

bit because we're part of the system.

That's our job, is to lower our entropy.

That is, grow up.

Okay?

And that turns out to be, lowering
entropy is the same as cooperating.

Caring.

Interacting with each other positively.

And I can make that obvious if you
just take two groups of people,

almost identical, except this group
is called the love group, and this

other group is the fear group.

And you give each one of them a certain
amount of resources, and certain space

that they can move in and say, all
right, you guys go, okay, you got a

fairly tight rule set now like our earth.

What are they going to do?

The one that's the love
group, they will cooperate.

They'll care about each other.

They will build a system with
those resources to take care of

everybody as best they can, because
they're everybody's interested that

everybody else gets their fair share.

That's just the way they are.

Okay.

That's the love group.

Now you have the fear group.

Of course, if you have
fear, you don't have trust.

If you don't have trust,
then it's all about you.

You're self centered.

And if it's self centered, then it's
what can I get and how can I keep it?

And if everybody is in a what can I
get and how can I keep it mode, then

pretty soon the big guys beat up the
little guys and take their stuff.

That's just the way it is.

And then the little guys will get
together and say, okay, there'll be

10 of us and we'll all work together.

And another big guy comes along,
we'll lock him and take his stuff.

So then the big guys start forming
up teams and, and so on that grows.

And what you have is very much
like the reality we live in.

The fundamental ethic for
civilization is the warlord.

That's how the strong get at the top,
the ones that have power and those

delegate down through lower levels
of power until you have all the serfs

and the peasants or whatever people
at the bottom who do most all the

work, and you end up with 5% of the
individuals owning 95% of all the stuff.

It's the warlord mentality
is how we see the world.

How a lot of us see the world
and that's just defines a

low quality of consciousness.

That's a high entropy consciousness,
which is a low quality of consciousness.

A high quality of consciousness
is a low entropy consciousness.

So you see, just looking at those two
models, which one is the low entropy.

In other words, which one is stable,
which one produces more, which one

ends up as being a place you'd like
to live as opposed to not, and you'll

see that the low entropy, the thing
that builds and can build on itself

and keep building on itself, you
know, get a foundation and build.

As opposed to the fear group, which
some of the people in their group

in a fear can build something up,
but there's always already somebody

who wants to tear that down.

Somebody who wants to be the
leader, somebody that wants to be

up higher on the top, and they'll
get rid of those people on the top.

There's always warring, fighting,
struggling, people trying to take each

other's stuff and manipulate the peasants.

And it's always struggle,
which is very high entropy.

Everybody getting along and
sharing and doing the best they can

together, that's very low entropy.

There's no conflict there.

You don't have that kind of thing.

There's not even any rudeness there.

It's just, I know it's hard to
imagine but that's the way it works.

Yeah.

Now, some people will immediately say
that, oh that one is it's controlled.

They have all these rules, and I don't
want to, I'll be in that one that's

rowdy because that one has more freedom.

That's not true.

The one that is the low
entropy has the fewest rules.

It doesn't have to have big
hierarchies and all the rules that

force control down so that the top
can control the middle and the bottom.

They don't need all of those rules.

They don't have rules.

It's not that, hey, you do this and
you do that and here are the rules.

You're thinking that this collective
over here that works nicely

together is run by a dictator.

It's not, because all of the experience
that we have with collectives is they're

collectives of a bunch of people who
have a very low quality of consciousness.

So you get a bunch of people together
for a cooperative collective and they're

all people based on fear, what happens?

It turns into something ugly.

Okay, the people had grand ideas about
how it was going to be so wonderful,

and everybody would love each other, but
you got a bunch of high entropy people,

they're going to turn it into a warlord
thing, and somebody's going to become

the dictator, and it all goes to hell
in a handbasket, because the people...

They don't have enough
quality to be caring.

It's all about them.

They're all self centered.

So the collective has a really bad name
because it always fails and turns up in

something ugly because the people are
not high quality enough to make it work.

But where you have a collective of
high quality people, low entropy

people, which is what I said
here, then it's not like that.

If somebody in the collective says,
oh, I'm tired of doing brain surgery.

I need to get out and get some fresh air.

I need to do something else.

And the rest of the collective
will try to adjust to make that

individual get what they want.

It's not I'm a brain surgeon,
that's what I'm trained to do.

So whether that's boring or not,
that's what I'm going to do for

the next 50 years or 30 years,
because that's the track I'm on.

And you're stuck in that track.

In this other system, you're
never stuck in anything.

The system that, of those people with the
high quality of consciousness will adjust

itself to accommodate every individual
as best it can, as best as possible.

So you decide what you want to do is
make pretty pictures and write poetry.

That has value and that's valued.

So that's fine.

And if you want to do that instead
of brain surgery, that's okay, too.

So the system will train enough
brain surgeons and train enough

whatever so that you can do what you
want to do when you want to do it.

You got a midlife crisis and suddenly
you want to change everything.

The rest of the system will support it.

That's changes.

So you have the maximum amount
of freedom in that love.

Rather than in a fear group, you
have the minimum amount of freedom.

There's always a lot of rules.

Because the people at the top make
rules to make sure they stay on top.

And you have all these rules to
prevent low quality of consciousness

from killing each other.

You've got all the criminal law,
which is all a bunch of rules.

You don't need criminal
law in this other place.

There are no criminals.

You don't have any of
that kind of behavior.

Nobody wants to take it over.

Nobody wants to be the leader.

Nobody wants to do that because
they're all high quality individuals.

So I know hard to imagine that's possible.

But just think it's
theoretically possible.

Yes, we could grow up that much.

So let's see, where was I?

So that's the reason our purpose here
on this life is to grow up, become love.

Make those choices, make it about
other rather than about self.

Get rid of the self centered 'oh, it's
all about me' and what I want and how

can I get it, and then how can I keep it,
and who do I have to run over to get it?

It's how can I control things?

We want to control everything.

We want to control our spouse.

We want to control our children.

We want them to be this
way instead of that way.

When I talk about that warlord mentality,
it's not just politics in nation states.

It's about individuals.

Individuals see themselves as
little warlords of their own.

A little universe that they live
in and they want the kids to grow

up and be doctors and lawyers
and instead of drug addicts.

So they, put rules out there, but the
rules tend to drive kids to be the

drug addicts, so it's a different idea
that's hard for people to get their

heads around this different idea.

So yes, there's lots of other
virtual realities out there.

Lots of virtual realities.

Every reality, that means anywhere
that you can have experience, if

you can experience in that reality,
then it's a virtual reality.

Because the only way you can have
experience is if there are rules that

provide context for the experience.

Just like that game I said, if I
just say, okay, here's a game, you go

first, you can't experience that game.

There's no experience because
there aren't any rules.

It's the rules that create the experience.

If any reality you can be in, dreaming,
imagining, out of bodying, anything that

you can be in, there you can experience,
that's a virtual reality, because

rules are required for experience.

They create the context
for the experience.

Yes, lots of other realities out there.

The larger consciousness system wouldn't
put all of its eggs in just one basket.

It would have different virtual realities.

And maybe the way that they're
managed would be different, because

the system would like to say, what's
the most effective and efficient

way to run this virtual reality?

What can we do to help those
conscious's that are playing

characters in that reality to
grow up, to lower their entropy?

What could we do to make it a more
effective training aid, because these

realities, our physical universe
is an entropy reduction trainer.

We're in it being trained to
make lower entropy choices.

Because by doing that, we evolve and
the system evolves and the system will

support us and try to help us as it
can, because our success is its success.

So there's multiple realities
around because there's multiple

ways to approach that problem.

So I'm just hitting the highlights
here and there, there's a whole

lot of things I'm not talking about
because our show isn't that long.

We'd have to go for five or six hours,
to get it, to get most of it out.

But In any case over to you,
Rod I guess I've stirred up a

few questions in all of that.

Yeah that's why I always often have
people come back for a live stream

because of all the other questions.

I think what we'll do is in
stirring up this, I think people

are going to say, be saying, okay
how do I learn more about this?

How do I, get in touch with
these alternative realities

that Tom is talking about?

So why don't you tell us a bit about,
I know you've got your books, why

don't you tell us a bit about what
else you've got going on, how people

can learn more about what you do and
any other programs you might have Tom.

Okay, first just a little basics, and
that is that all of the paranormal

things happen in the intuitive channel.

Your consciousness basically
has two channels in which

it processes information.

One channel is the intuitive channel,
the other channel is the intellectual

channel, or the logic channel.

The intuitive channel does not do logic.

It does information without logic.

You get things, but it's not logical.

You just know.

It's the intuitive channel.

All things paranormal happen
in the intuitive channel.

Now, we Westerners, and probably most
Easterners these days too, the Western

cultures run over the whole world.

We tend to develop our intellectual...

side a lot because we do that.

We start with preschool and then
school and then high school and

then college and graduate school.

We keep working on it.

Even if we don't go to school,
we keep learning things.

Learning new skills, learning new
things, understanding things better.

All of that is on our intellectual side.

Okay?

And on the intuitive side, we're
not as smart intuitively as we

were when we were three years old.

When we were three years old, we
were more intuitive than we are now.

And we've lost even that little bit.

So here we are with this, big macho
muscle, and this tiny little infant baby

of a development on the intuitive side,
almost to the point that scientists

will tell you, there is no intuition.

Intuition doesn't exist.

So all of the paranormal things then just
can't exist because that's where they are.

So if you want to learn that, you have
to learn it through your own experience.

Like I said, if it's not your
experience, it's not your truth.

If you want to understand this larger
reality from the inside, then you need

to experience these things and convince
yourself through your own actions

and interactions that this is real.

And because I tell people don't
believe anything I say, you need

to go experience it yourself.

And you can experience everything that
I've experienced is open for experience.

I'm not particularly special in
that only I can experience it,

everybody can experience it.

All right, how do you develop your
intuitive side to where you can

experience it, where you can depend on it?

First, I will tell you that once you
develop your intuitive side, you will

find it's just as correct, just as
reliable as your intellectual side.

Right now, when it's undeveloped,
you think it's flaky.

It's like your gut hunches, they are
wrong as often as they are right.

That's because your intuitive
side is undeveloped.

But once you develop it,
actually, the truth is, it's more

accurate and more dependable.

More reliable than the intellectual side.

But I generally don't say that
because I know that pushes

people's credibility buttons.

It's actually more reliable.

And the reason for that is your
intellectual side is always

stymied by a lack of information.

Logic, deductive logic,
requires a lot of information.

Okay, what is it I said the
earlier important things?

Who should I marry?

How many children should I have?

Okay, now figure that out logically.

You can't figure that out logically.

There's not enough information.

The only way to figure that out
logically is if you had a crystal ball

and if this happened to be a a reality
that what is it called if you're a

materialist you're also a determinist.

If it was a determinist reality where
nothing ever changed, nothing evolves,

nothing is learned, nothing ever changes.

It's determined at the beginning.

It's all done.

All right, if you were in a determinist
reality and had a crystal ball, then

you'd know who to marry because you
could just look and see how that

worked out over the next 50 years.

But you don't.

One, it's not a determinist reality.

There is no done deal on the future.

The future happens as we make choices.

There's possibilities and there's
potentials and there's probabilities, and

there's a database that's the probable
future database of all those things that

are likely to happen or that not likely
that could happen all the possibilities

and the probabilities that each might
happen, so that database is there.

There is no future.

So without a crystal ball, your logic
isn't worth a damn when it comes to

the big questions of who do I marry?

Or how many children are we going to have?

Or, what sort of dog am I going to buy?

And just anything.

Which job should I take?

And inside that job, which
position should I take?

Should I take this or should
I wait for something better?

There's no logical answers
to any of those questions.

All the questions you have that
are really important to you are

all done on the intuitive side.

None of them can be solved
from the intellectual side.

Now, we pretend that we solve
them in the intellectual side.

We're good at pretending that.

We think we're very rational people and
we run our life with logic, but that's

nonsense because we never have enough
information to run our life with logic.

We run our life based on guessing.

And that guessing is
based on our experience.

We have experiences, and things work
out this way, so we guess that they

probably, previous trends will continue.

So we make guesses based on
experiences, the way we deal

with that lack of information.

And when you make guesses based
on the past, you're wrong an awful

lot, because the past doesn't have
to repeat itself all the time.

If that's your mode of getting through
life, then you'll be wrong almost as often

as you're right, because in dealing with
people and what people do and why they do

it past experience just doesn't tell you
a whole lot because everybody's different.

We aren't machines.

If we were all machines,
that would work pretty well.

But we're not.

So we get a lot of it wrong.

We don't understand each other
and we guess we think everybody's

like us and everybody thinks
like us and feels like us.

And that's a very poor assumption to make.

But we treat everybody with the idea that
they're just like us, but they aren't.

So everybody has this intuitive
side, and they can develop it.

And I have some tools for developing, I
have two really major tools for developing

your intuitive side, which will open
the doors for all the paranormal things,

and I suggest that you put some time
into it because it's not all that hard.

You can be reasonably good at healing
other people with your mind very quickly.

You can be good at it almost immediately.

And get reasonably good
at it in six months.

It doesn't take a lot of time.

That's one of the easiest
paranormal things to do.

Because there's so much uncertainty
in the probabilities with it.

Because biology is so complex,
there's lots of uncertainties

about what might happen.

It's a very complex machine, and you
really don't know how that might work out.

There are people that have stage 4 cancer,
and given two weeks to live, and after

a week, they don't have any cancer at
all, and they live another 30 years.

That happens.

So biology is just has so many
possibilities and what we're

doing is manipulating the
possibilities with your intent.

You can modify those
probable future database.

You can modify the
probabilities in that database.

So what is probable to happen?

Those probabilities will shift.

It doesn't mean that
you'll get what you want.

It just means the probabilities
have shifted, so it's a little

more likely you get what you want.

If what you wanted was a million to
one, and now it's only a thousand to one

you're still not going to get it likely.

It's still a thousand to one, but you've
really moved the probability a whole lot,

so it depends on where the probabilities
are, how much you can move them, and how

adept you are at being able to move them.

But that's the way that works, so
everybody can learn that sort of thing.

If you're doing remote
viewing, you can be...

Good at it to where most of the time you
get a lot of it, but not all of it but

a lot of it you know in what you know
a week or two, you know a month or two.

It's just not that hard so you can do
these things but you have to develop

that intuitive side and the hardest
thing that people have, the thing

that makes it difficult is you've
got this big muscle guy on your left

brain and that is your intellect.

And that intellect always wants to
butt in and solve the problem because

that's how you deal with life.

You lead in life with your intellect.

Your intellect looks at things,
finds out where the problems

are, avoids the problems.

Yay for my intellect.

And that's how you run this life.

As soon as you get into
the intuitive channel, your

intellect wants to also butt in.

And as soon as it butts in,
the intuitive channel's gone.

The intuitive channel
isn't run by the intellect.

It's trashed by the intellect.

So the intuitive channel has to
tell the intellect, go sit down, I

just want to experience something.

Leave me alone and don't butt in.

And most people have a real hard
time getting their intellect to do

that because they're so habituated
to that intellect running everything.

So that is the...

That's the big problem.

So it's not that we have to learn
some clever new way of doing things.

We have to unlearn an old way
of doing things, which is our

intellect's running everything.

We have to let that happen.

We have to just be open to the
information and then get it.

Now, if our intellect is guessing
what it is that will ruin it.

It won't work.

So I have two methods for doing that.

And there's really two methods
for getting into the intuitive

state, developing your intuition.

One of them is through the
standard role of meditation.

That's typical.

And what you do there is that
you discipline your mind.

And most of it is discipline,
disciplining your intellect to be quiet.

So in meditation, they'll tell you
to sit down and have no thoughts.

In other words, tell your
intellect to be quiet.

Yeah.

And eventually.

you will learn to discipline that
intellect and be able to turn it off.

So the whole, the whole exercise
in meditation is just to

discipline the intellect to get
it to sit down and be quiet.

That's the whole point of it, mostly.

And a lot of people struggle with that
and find it hard to do some find it

almost impossible to do and it takes time
to do that because you not only need to

shut that intellect down for a second
or two, but for the next half hour so

you can actually do things on the other
side and not a single question or thought

or anything comes through your mind.

It's just open.

Ok, that's you becoming
aware of the intuitive side.

And after that, just a little bit of work.

You can work on those paranormal
things and they'll be fairly easy.

The other two things that get in the
way, three things actually, they're all

based on one thing, and that's fear.

It's your fear will get in the way.

Now the fear has children.

There's two children of fear.

Where one of them is ego
and the other one is belief.

Fears create a lot of
ego and a lot of belief.

And that ego and that belief
will cause you trouble.

So getting rid of your fear
is really a good thing to do.

It'll make your intuitive voyages
much easier and much more productive.

If you've got fear, then you'll
take that fear with you and you'll

find all sorts of scary things
while you're in your intuitive side.

You will intuit a lot of scary
junk that's just your own fear

coming right out of your ego.

So that will get in the way.

All right, these two products,
one of them is Explore the Larger

Conscious System with Thomas Campbell.

It's a program.

It's a program that you can take.

It spans I don't know, five days, six
days, and it's not all that expensive.

It was what happened was that I gave
these, this program, in real brick and

mortar locations, we gave this program
and because they're brick and mortar

locations, you know, venues, there's
food, there's travel costs, they're

pretty expensive and if you have all the
costs figured in, it's $2000 or $3000

to spend 5 days learning this stuff.

So it's pretty expensive.

I did that maybe, I
don't know, 30, 40 times.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And friends of mine, Donna and Keith
Warner, they took all of those 30 or

40 of those times, searched through
them, and took the best of all of them.

Take a whole thing and
created one five day course.

And they put it on audio, so on Soundwise.

And if you go to their
website, which is mbtevents.

com, they will have lots
of pointers to that.

And you can get that.

Now that is the path that
generally runs through meditation.

Okay, you expect it to be
able to quiet your mind.

The other one is Tom's Park.

Tom's Park is another way that
you can get there, and it has

nothing to do with meditation.

You don't have to be
able to meditate at all.

The discipline just comes naturally,
and it uses your imagination.

And the imagination is
another way to get there.

Again, with the imagination, you
start, you learn to imagine and

then just let the action roll on
by itself without you being there.

And I've got a thing called Tom's
Park that will explain it all to you.

And you get into the physical
part of the park 1st to develop

your imagination skills.

And then you go into the parts of the park
that are mainly about the non physical

things that you can deal with in there.

So two ways that you can
find out for yourself,

and I recommend you do
find out for yourself.

I wish I'd had three hours to talk
to you, Tom, but it's been great.

Thank you very much for coming on
the show and perhaps we'll have

you back again for a live stream.

And I really appreciate your time today.

Okay well, you're welcome.