Untethered Consciousness

So I see this big flash
of light come out of

the phone, hits me in
the face, and throws me

back like a rag doll.

And it really
threw me backwards.

And that's when things
really got interesting

because as I was being thrown
backwards, all of a sudden

I had this very strange
sensation of moving forwards.

My guest today is Dr.

Tony Cicoria, MD.

He just prefers Tony.

He's a practicing orthopedic
surgeon who had a near

death experience back in
1994, and he's here to

tell us what caused his
NDE and some of the pretty

amazing things that have
happened to him since then.

Tony, welcome and thanks so
much for coming on the show.

Thank you.

I appreciate being invited.

It's pretty crazy.

This opposite ends of the
earth thing, isn't it?

Oh, it, it is absolutely
incredible that, you go

through life thinking, is
there going to be a tomorrow?

And here I am talking
to somebody in tomorrow.

yep.

I guess you're a guarantee
that there is a tomorrow.

Exactly.

Yep.

I'm Friday.

Your Thursday.

Tony, would you give us a
little bit of background

on your life up to the
day of your NDE and then

we can go from there?

Okay.

I grew up in upstate New
York, Kingston, New York.

I went to the Citadel, which
was a military college in

South Carolina in 1970.

And when I graduated, I went
to get my PhD in physiology

and I had the great honor
to work with Albert St.

Georgie, my senior
year in college.

He was up at the Massachusetts
one of the Oceanic labs,

and I'm drawing a blank.

At any rate, I thought
for sure that I wanted

to be a scientist and
I went to get my PhD.

And when I finished,
the options were limited

for what I wanted to do.

I could be a lab rat
in somebody's basement.

And I thought that
this, it's not what I

thought it was gonna be.

At the time I was in love
with the idea of the old

scientists and they would, go
for walks in the park around

the lake and share great
ideas and help each other.

And all of that
disappeared over time.

And it became a publish
or perish environment.

And I thought, you know what?

I'm gonna take it
a step further.

And I decided to go
to medical school.

So as soon as I finished, I
continued at the same place

at the Medical University
of South Carolina and

and decided to get my MD.

And as I was going through
that, trying to decide what

type of physician I wanted
to be, I decided I wanted

to be an orthopedic surgeon
because I was always one

of those kids that liked to
take things apart and put

'em back together again.

So it seemed like a
natural aptitude for me.

And so I did that and in 1988
I started working and we were

in upstate New York a place
called Oneonta, New York.

And my wife normally would
have a big party every August

and in this particular August
of 1994 was gonna be at a

place called Sleepy Hollow
Lake in upstate New York,

which is just below Albany,
and that's where we're

gonna have this big party.

About 25 people.

Lots of kids running around.

And my wife had rented
a pavilion to have this

multiple birthday party at.

And I was elected the
cook, and that's the

way the day started.

And then as I was out working
the barbecue I thought I

hadn't checked on my mom
cuz she was not there and I

thought I better go call her.

So I, I got somebody to cover
the barbecue and I walked

around in the front of the
building and there was a

payphone attached to it and
I'm gonna give my mom a call.

And I picked up the phone
and I dialed her number and

let it ring 4, 5, 6 times
and she never picked up.

So I was, I thought, oh,
I, I'll try again later.

And as I took the phone away
from my face I heard a huge

crack and I saw this big flash
of light come out of the phone

and hit me in the face, and
I knew exactly what it was.

It was like a
lightning strike.

What I hadn't realized because
I was paying attention to the

grill, was that a storm cloud
had brewed up over the lake

that we were next to, and I
hadn't been paying attention.

So I see this big flash
of light come out of

the phone, hits me in
the face, and throws me

back like a rag doll.

And it really
threw me backwards.

And that's when things really
got interesting because as I

was being thrown backwards,
all of a sudden I had this

very strange sensation of
moving forwards And I remember

standing there thinking,
how is this possible?

I know I got hit, I saw
it, and I knew I'd been

thrown back like a rag doll.

And here I am standing
and I'm looking around.

I look at the phone and
the phone is just dangling.

And nothing's
making any sense.

And at that point I hear my
mother-in-law screaming and

I'm down at the bottom of the
stairs and everybody else is

up on the first floor and I
hear her screaming and all of

a sudden she's running down
the stairs right at me and

I'm thinking, and it's not
good when your mother-in-law's

screaming and running at you.

And as she got down in front
of me, I could tell that

she couldn't see me cuz she
was looking off to her left.

And as she got to the
bottom of the stairs, it was

like I wasn't even there.

And she just took off to
the left and I thought,

what the hell is going on?

And so I started to follow
her and I took a few steps

following her and all of
a sudden I'm confronted

with myself on the ground.

And I remember looking down
and going, oh shit, I'm dead.

It wa it was a shock.

I guess all of my life
I thought that, when you

died there would be some
sort of notification.

Either who knows what it
was, but I didn't expect to

have it not even be known.

I thought there'd be
some bells or whistles

that would go off, but it
was absolutely nothing.

So I'm standing there and
I'm looking at myself on

the ground, and as this is
happening, my mind is racing

like crazy and I'm trying
to make sense of this and

all of a sudden I'm saying
to myself, wait a minute.

I'm thinking just
like I normally would.

And I'm obviously not in that
body that's on the ground.

I'm standing out here.

I can hear everybody.

I can see everybody, but
nobody can see or hear me.

And I'm trying to get
their attention and

nothing seemed to work.

And then I saw this lady
who actually was waiting

to use the phone behind me.

And she started to
get down to do CPR.

Turns out she was a nurse from
one of the local hospitals,

and how fortuitous is that?

Get struck by lightning
and have somebody waiting

to save your ass from
going to the other side.

So she got down and
she starts doing what

she's supposed to do.

And at this point I'm
thinking, nobody can see

me, nobody can hear me.

And I'm feeling stupid and
I thought I'm gonna go check

on my family cuz they were
upstairs and my wife and

my three kids are up there.

And I thought I'm gonna
go up the stairs and

see what's going on.

So I walk over to the stairs
and I start to go up and I

get to about the third stair.

And I'm looking down at
the stairs cuz I always,

I'm afraid I'm gonna fall
face forward on the stairs.

So I always watch
what I'm doing.

And as I'm looking down,
I noticed that my legs are

starting to dissolve and
I thought, whoa, this is

getting really intense.

And I just kept
going up the stairs.

By the time I got to
the top of the stairs,

I had lost all form.

I was just a ball of energy.

And the stairs go
off to the left.

And I said, what the hell?

I'm not gonna go
up the stairs.

I just went through the wall.

And when I got to the other
side of the wall, I came out

right over the top of where
my wife was sitting and she's

painting children's faces.

And I made a mental note of
where the kids were, where

who was standing where.

Who the kids were and what
pattern they were standing in.

I don't know why I
did that, but I did.

And later on I verified
that was exactly the

way they were standing.

And so traveled through
this room and when I got to

the other side of the room,
I was going on a diagonal

and I went through the roof.

And suddenly I'm outside.

And that's when things
really got crazy interesting

because it was like I had
fallen into a river of pure

positive energy and there
wasn't anything in this river

of energy except absolute
love and absolute peace.

And it was just, it was
absolutely shaking to

experience it because it
was devoid of anything else.

And it was this bluish white
light and it had a sparkly

appearance to it, and it
made me think of when I was

a kid and I'd be swimming
in a crystal clear stream

and I'd see the sun shining
through the water as I

was underneath the water.

And it reminded me of that.

And as I was looking at this
light energy, and I could

tell what it felt like.

And as I looked around,
I started to see that

whatever this energy was, it
actually made up everything.

And I could look at the
trees and see the energy

flowing into the trees and
everything was made up of

whatever this energy was.

And I thought to myself,
I'm thinking, this

is the God energy.

This is what
everything is made of.

And I thought, this
is so powerful.

I can, I could measure this.

And so my science brain is
kicking in going, we can,

we could look at this.

And I'm like, but and
the more I looked at it,

I could actually see the
energy pattern and it

had a sine wave pattern.

And I could see it flowing.

And it went
through everything.

And at this point I could tell
that I was moving someplace.

Had no idea where I was going.

But I could feel
speed and direction.

So I was accelerating in, into
something, but I had no idea

what, and at this point I've
become absolutely euphoric

over the fact that this is
the greatest thing that could

ever happen to somebody.

And I, I had a short period
where I saw high points

and low points in my life.

Almost like a collage of
pictures just, showed me

pictures of this and this
and that and there wasn't

a lot of emotion around it.

It was just, these are
things that happened in

your life that were of some
significance, and there was

no explanation other than the
fact that they just passed on.

And so I settled down and
I'm floating in this river

of pure positive energy.

And I'm thinking, again, this
is the greatest thing that

could ever happen to somebody.

And I was just excited
about where it was going.

And then all of a sudden it
was like somebody flipped

a switch and I was back in
my body and I was pissed.

I was like, no, don't
make me go back and you

can't do this to me.

And I quickly realized
that's not up to me.

And I'm laying there on
the ground and in the place

where it hit me in the face
and came out my foot, it

felt like somebody had taken
hot pokers and stuck them

in both of those places.

But I'm still unconscious
and the lady who was next

to me had stopped CPR and
she's just kneeling next to

me, but I still can't open
my eyes or look at anybody.

And so it took several minutes
before I had enough mental

function to be able to open
my eyes and say anything.

And at that point I just
embarrassed myself because

the first thing I said to
this lady who's kneeling next

to me, that saved my life, I
said, it's okay I'm a doctor.

And she just kinda
laughed and she said you

weren't a minute ago.

And I thought, okay, none
of this is making sense

and I'm just making a fool
of myself, so I'm gonna

shut up, which I did.

And of course, the police
and the ambulance came and

I said, no, I'm not going.

When you get struck
by lightning, you're

either alive or dead.

There's not much in between.

And it's, at that point I
said, just talk to my family.

And I said, take me home.

Let me see my cardiologist,
my neurologist and let's,

let me just get out of this.

So that's what happened.

And so they took me home
and I saw my doctors and

everybody said the same thing.

You're lucky to be here.

And I was like, okay but I was
tormented by what did it mean?

When I started to think about
it and, everything in life

is a series of probabilities.

And I started thinking about
what's the possibility or

the probability of a bolt of
lightning, several million

volts worth, striking a
building, losing enough of

its current by the time it
gets to you that it doesn't

turn you into a french fry,
it just stops your heart.

And then I think, and what's
the probability of having

a nurse standing behind
you so that just in case

you got a little too much,
somebody was gonna be there

to jumpstart your heart again.

And, when I started
looking at all this stuff,

I'm thinking there's
nothing random about this.

And as Einstein used to say,
God does not throw dice.

And that's true.

And I'm a firm believer
that everything

happens for a reason.

But I was given no reasons.

I had no idea.

And I was haunted by the fact
that this thing had happened

and I had no idea why and
what it meant or what I was

supposed to take from it.

And then shortly after
that, it was about two

weeks after the event.

So after the lightning,
it took me about a week

to get the circuits
running again properly.

That first week I could
look right at you.

And say, I know who you are.

I'll be damned if I
can find your name.

It's locked in a box
someplace up there

and I can't get to it.

And there were a lot
of things like that.

I just I knew that I knew
something, but I couldn't

get to where that file was.

And after a week that
disappeared and it seemed like

everything was back to normal.

But about another week or
two after that, I started

having this really incredible
desire to hear classical piano

music, which was a really
strange thing for me because

I was a kid of the sixties.

There was rock and
roll and there wasn't

much of anything else.

My mother had made
me play piano when I

was seven years old.

She made me take lessons
for a year and I, out of

obligation, I did that.

Actually was probably under
threat of life and limb.

But I did it and never had any
interest and never went back.

But all of a sudden I, I
can't do anything without

thinking about this absolute
desire to hear this.

And it was so strong that
I drove an hour to Albany,

which was the nearest
big city that would have

classical piano music on CDs.

And I went into this music
store, and as I walked in

there, it seemed like there
was a CD that just jumped

off the shelf into my hands,
and it was Vladimir Ashkenazi

playing his favorite Chopan.

Ashkenazi was one of
the famous Russian

pianists, is one of the
famous Russian pianists.

He's still alive.

And at this point I
didn't know what to

do with all of it.

It was just, I was so
taken by this the music

and I started listening
to the CD and I listened

to it nonstop and I made
everybody else listen to it.

I'm sure they were
sick of hearing it.

But, I just couldn't stop.

It was just a compulsion
that had made no sense to me.

But within a very short
period of time of listening

to this music, I realized
that it's not gonna be enough

to listen to this music.

I need to know how to play
it, which was a big problem

since I didn't have a piano
and I didn't know how to play.

But I was undeterred.

And the very next day, one
of our babysitters came

to the house and said, I'm
gonna be moving and I have

this old upright piano I
need to store for a year.

Could I store it
at your house?

And I'm thinking, okay, this
is really getting weird now.

So all of a sudden
I have a piano.

And she loads the piano in
the house and I'm thinking,

all right, now I need to know
how to learn how to play.

So I went and bought a
couple books and how to try

to teach yourself to play.

And at the same time,
I ordered all the sheet

music from the cd, which
is, magical thinking.

I don't know what the
hell I was thinking.

There are people who have
been playing this stuff

for 10 years and still
wouldn't attempt to do that.

But it didn't seem to matter.

I was determined to learn how
to do this, and so I started

to try to teach myself,
and within a few more weeks

of that, I go into bed as
normal, but all of a sudden

I, I have this dream and
in this dream, It was like

an out of body experience.

I'm actually, I'm walking out
onto the stage and I'm walking

toward myself and I'm way
out on the front edge of the

stage and I'm at a, I'm giving
a concert at this concert

hall and I'm listening to
this music that I'm playing.

And as I'm walking up
behind myself, the thought

comes to me that this is
not somebody else's music.

This is mine.

And I thought, okay.

So I, I'd start listening
intently to it, and I walked

up behind myself and I'm
listening to what I'm playing

and I'm watching everything
and I'm looking at the concert

hall and the ending had this
loud crashing ending and it

woke me up and I, so I got up.

And I sat on the edge of the
bed and I looked around and

it was 3:15 in the morning
and I walked out to the

piano and I thought let me
see if I can plunk some of

this out that I just heard.

I had no idea, and I didn't
know how to write music.

I didn't know how
to read music.

And so I sat there and
I could plunk out a few

notes of what I heard, but
I didn't even know how to

write down what they were.

And so I said, the
hell with this.

And I went to bed and I woke
up always at 5 30, 6 o'clock,

cuz that was my time to get
up and get ready for work.

And from that moment
on, whenever I went near

that piano, the music
from the dream would

start to play in my head.

So whenever I sat down,
at the piano, it was

like a tape recording,
it would just start.

And if I didn't pay
attention to it, it

would become intrusive.

It would actually start
playing when I was trying

to work or when I was
trying to do something else.

And so I learned very quickly
that it was kinda like a

two year old, you really
had to pay attention to

it or there was gonna be
some repercussions from it.

And so this process went on
and I continued trying to

teach myself and I picked
out a few of the pieces from

that CD that I thought, I'm
gonna learn these first.

And I started trying to
teach myself and one day I'm

banging away at the piano
and my daughter's best friend

Jackie was over at the house
and her mom was coming by to

pick her up and she came in
the house and she heard me

on the piano and she came in
and said, what are you doing?

And I said, I'm trying to
learn this piece of music.

It was called The Fantasy
Impromptu, a piece of Chopan.

And I said, I don't understand
why the hands don't line

up in this piece of music.

I said why would somebody
write a piece of music where

the hands don't line up?

And she said they're
not supposed to.

And I said, why?

And she said, it's
called a poly rhythm.

And I said, I'd never
heard of that word before.

And I was like, why
would anyone do that?

And she said, I'm
not even gonna try to

explain this to you.

You need to get a teacher.

So at that point she gave me
the name of Sandy McCain, who

was the chairman of music at
Hartwick College in Onionto,

New York where we lived.

And I called up Sandy and
told her this whole story

and asked her if she'd
take on an old guy to try

to teach him some piano.

And she did.

And we started working
two hours a week.

The only time we had in
common was five o'clock.

So five o'clock
was our piano time.

Five o'clock in the morning.

So I'm sure that her family
was not real happy with me,

but that was the best we could
do to meet the two schedules.

And so this went on
for quite some time.

And then as I'm learning to
play, I'm also working on

the music from this dream.

And as I learned how to do
things, I would write down a

measure or two and I'd stuff
it in a drawer someplace,

thinking, someday I'll
get back to all of this.

And I kept working on
learning how to play, and

I started going to a music
camp, a piano camp for adults

in Bennington, Vermont,
which was called a Sonata.

And it was, it's
a group of people.

They would meet four or
five, six times a year.

Different people and at
different times, and it's all

people that are absolutely
obsessed with piano and

then this is their week
of indulging themselves.

And so I started
going to that in 2002.

In 2006 when I went,
the owner's sister Erica

Vander Lynn Seidner.

Erica was the number one
salesperson for Steinway

in New York City, and she
had just left Steinway and

went to Bosendorfer, and she
was there at the piano camp

and she brought five pianos
in for people to play on,

which was an absolute treat.

And we got talking about
all of this stuff and the

music and the music from
the dream and the things

that I was working on and
afterwards, she said to

me, there's only one person
that can tell this story,

and that's Oliver Sacks.

And at the time I didn't
know who Oliver Sacks was

other than the fact that he
wrote the book Awakenings,

when he figured out how to
treat Parkinson's Disease.

He's a famous neurologist,
and I didn't think

anything more of it.

And so I went about
my normal business.

And it seemed like that was
in May, that meeting was.

And in June, I get a phone
call from Oliver Sacks and I'm

like, oh, this can't be real.

And Oliver says, I've
heard about this lightning

story and I'd like to have
you come down to New York

City to interview you.

I'd like you to be
one of my patients.

I have a collection of
people like you who have

had unusual things happen.

And I said, sure,
that would be great.

So in August of that year,
2006, I went down to see

Oliver Sachs and I got to
spend the whole day with him,

which is an absolute treasure.

This was a man who could
think circles around anybody

I knew, including myself.

And he, we spent the
entire day together which

I will never forget, and
at the end of the day,

we're standing in the
doorway and saying goodbye.

And he looked at me and
he had this piercing way

of looking at people.

And he looked at me and he
says, the music from the

dream went through an awful
lot of trouble to get here.

The least you can
do is write it.

And I was so taken
with what he said.

I went right home.

And it was about three
hours to get back home.

So I had plenty of
time to think about it.

But when I got home, the
next day, I went right out

and bought a music writing
program called Sebelius,

which is the equivalent of
music writing for dummies.

And if you have an
electric piano, you can

hook this thing up so that
you can play something

and the music actually
appears on the screen.

And so that was the way
I started because by that

point, I had gotten to where
I could play some parts of the

music from the dream, but I
had no idea how to write it.

And so I spent the next
seven months, every minute

that I wasn't working,
writing down this music.

My goal was to get it written
for my next May piano camp.

And so that was my goal.

And so when piano camp came
around in May I had finished

the music and played it for
my piano friends at this piano

camp, and everybody liked it.

And I thought, okay,
this is pretty cool.

While I was there, I got
a call from Oliver and

he says, I wanted to ask
your permission to, to

use your story in my book.

And I thought I don't
have anything to

hide, sure, go ahead.

He said, good cuz you're
chapter one and it's

coming out July 23rd.

I said, we got a little ahead
of ourselves here and sure

enough, my story was published
in the New Yorker magazine the

July 23rd edition, 2007, and.

At that point, all hell
broke loose because, this

was, I hadn't been telling
a lot of people about this

story and cuz I didn't
want people to think I was

crazy and suddenly it's got
taken out of the closet and

thrown out and everybody's
for everybody to look at.

And about a week after it
came out, I got a call from

a guy named Carlton Clay.

Carlton was the head
of the music department

at State University of
New York in Onionta.

And Carlton says, I
read this article and he

says, I'd love for you to
come and teach a class.

And I thought, look, that
would be pretty interesting

cuz I like to teach
and do unusual things.

And I said, sure.

And a week later he calls
and says, I'm getting

inundated with phone
calls about this thing.

He said, would you
consider playing the

music for the class?

And I thought, I'll do that.

And then it seemed like it
was another month or so after

that, Carlton calls again, and
he says, you won't believe it.

I'm just getting hammered
with people calling here and

everybody wants more and more.

And he said, would you
consider doing a concert at

the performing arts center?

And I said no, I don't have
the faintest idea how to

do something like that.

I said I'm not musically
trained, I'm not prepared.

I have no idea where to start.

And somehow he conned
me into doing it.

And I said, okay, I'll do it.

So the next phone call
I make is I call Sandy,

my music teacher.

And I said Carlton conned
me into doing this thing.

And so I said I would,
and it's gonna be

in January of 2008.

And I said, can you
get me ready for it?

And she said, it's
gonna be a lot of work.

She said, you gotta be
prepared to put three

or four hours a day into
getting ready for this.

And I'm like, okay.

We start on this process
and we would go up into the

performing arts center and
she would make me walk out on

stage and make me walk off.

She would, make me talk
to the crowd and then

make me play the music
and, I can still hear her.

She'd be up in a top
row of the seats.

And I'd be playing away and
she'd go, I can't hear you.

Oh my God, this is
gonna be no fun.

But, we worked along and
then about a few weeks

before the concert, Carlton
calls me again and he says,

things are changing again.

And I said, what
are you doing?

And he says, the BBC one
wants to come and so does

German television, and
so does Granada Media.

So there's three huge
sets that want to come

and film this thing.

And I was like, oh my
God, I've come too far

now, what am I gonna do?

I said, okay.

And so along comes
the concert day, which

actually turned out to
be my birthday anyway.

And there's three
television crews.

I remember going to the
green room right beforehand.

And I remember sitting in
there and I'm talking to

God and angels, anybody
that wants to listen.

And I said, you guys put me
through a lot to get me here.

I said, don't embarrass
us both and leave me out

there without a lot of help.

And thankfully I managed to
get through it and the music

from the dream and a couple
of other pieces that I had

written along the way and
managed to get through it.

And ever since then, it's
taken on a life of its own.

So I've played that music
all over the country.

And, it's interesting the
reactions that I get to it.

People will come up afterwards
and tell me about they see

visions or they feel certain
things and I've even had

some people ask if they could
come and lay on the floor

underneath the piano so they
can feel the vibrations of it.

Because there's something
in the music, there's

something in the frequencies
of the music that stimulates

certain brain activity
or certain behaviors.

And it's interesting.

I think there's more
to the music than I

have any concept of.

It's so far over my head.

But I do believe that there
are healing frequencies and

there are frequencies that
stimulate brain activity in

people, and it's just based
on the things that people say.

Tony, do you think that was
possibly the end game in mind?

If you consider that
we make a plan for life

before we come here.

Do you think that the fact
that the music is healing

was the ultimate intention?

I think that there's
some truth to that.

I have been searching for
an understanding of how

all this fits together
ever since it happened.

And I've literally
read hundreds of books

trying to understand.

And I think what it really
comes down to is that we

have no real concept of how
the brain works and how it's

connected to other things
and other places and, and

the frequencies that exist
in the ether or the quantum

field, as some people call it.

And how all of it interacts
and how it can help to

reprogram your brain.

And so is some of the aspect
of this music about helping

people to reprogram some
part of their brain that they

don't have access to or or
could help in their evolution?

I don't know, but I've
often wondered that.

Just going back to when your
NDE first occurred did you

start talking to your family,
did you tell your family about

what happened straight away?

I know you didn't talk to
many people, but how long was

it before you said, oh, this
is actually what occurred.

I told them pretty quickly.

But I was very selective
about anyone else.

So my family was the ones
that I told about what I

had seen and and how it all
seemed to fit together for me.

And, some people thought
I was just hallucinating.

Some people didn't
know what to think.

But I knew I was absolutely
certain of the things I saw in

the things that I experienced.

And as I had begun reading
as much as I could get my

hands on about people who've
had similar sorts of things,

there's a commonality that
people have who've had

a near death experience.

They all see very
similar things.

They experience
similar things.

There was one that
sticks out in my brain

is Pamela Reynolds.

It was a famous case and
Pam had an aneurysm in her

brain, which is a balloon
that's gonna burst and

when it does, you die.

End of story.

Unless it can be found
and have surgery.

And so she was having
headaches and she saw

her doctor, and he did
the appropriate test

and found this aneurysm.

And he sent her out to
the Barrow's Neurologic

Institute in Arizona.

Phoenix, Arizona.

And Dr.

Spetzler was the surgeon
that she saw, and he was

gonna do a new procedure
on her called standstill.

And what they would do is
they would take you into

the operating room, they
would hook you up to a

cardiac bypass machine,
put you on bypass, and then

they would drain all the
blood out of your brain.

So it was a bloodless field.

And they would do the surgery
and then they would put the

blood back in and restart
your heart and hopefully you

would wake back up again.

And this was a pioneering
procedure that she had done.

And what was interesting
was after, she lived and

after the surgery, she was
taken to the I C U, and when

she was in the I C U, she
started telling everybody

about all of the stuff that
happened to her when she

was proven clinically brain
dead and cardiac standstill.

So this woman's heart has
stopped, her brain has

been cooled to 60 degrees
and verified absolute flat

line, no electrical activity
in her brain, and yet,

she was able to tell them
exactly where all of the

equipment was set on the
tables, who was in the room.

She was able to give
conversations that the

doctors were having while
she's under anesthesia.

And then at one point she left
her body and she initially

went up and she was sitting
over Spetzler's shoulder.

And she was watching
what he was doing.

But then she said an
opening occurred up

toward the ceiling.

And so she went into the
tunnel and when she was in

the tunnel she met some of
her family who walked with

her a short ways, and then
they turned her around and

said, you have to go back.

And she said, hell no,
I'm not going back.

This is pretty nice over here.

And they somehow
managed to get her back.

And I think it was her uncle
or grandfather, I can't

remember which, who, when she
was standing at the edge of

the tunnel, pushed her out.

And that coincided with
when they started her heart.

And she had a veridical memory
of everything that happened.

The things that people
were saying in the room.

Who was in the room.

Music that was
playing in the room.

And, one of the things she
really objected to was when

Spetzler left the room,
he had the residents were

closing the wounds and
they put on music from the

Eagles: the Hotel California.

And she was very upset with
one particular line that said,

you can sign out anytime you
like, but you can never leave.

And she was very angry
about that because that

was what she experienced.

She didn't want to
go back in her body.

She wanted to go wherever
the tunnel took her.

But the fact that she was
able to be aware of the

music and the things that
were being said and the

instruments and what the
instruments sounded like.

There was an instrument
that they used in the

surgery called a Midas Rex.

It's a high speed drill that
they used to cut through bone.

It has a god awful sound.

As it cuts through bone it
really gets your attention.

But she made the sound
to a T of what it sounded

like, what it looked like.

And it's not possible to
do any of those things if

you're truly anesthetized.

And they had visual proof
that she was, because

they're recording her brain,
they're recording her heart.

She's flatlined both sl.

So you can't have your
cake and eat it too.

You can't say she must have
had light anesthesia, or she

had some way of knowing these
things, but there's no way.

It's an interesting
parallel of the things

that she experienced
and what I experienced.

I think is it Dr.

Eben Alexander?

I'm sure you've
probably read his book.

That's another good
example, and he's a

neuroscientist, right?

And he was completely
like prefrontal cortex

completely wiped out.

And he had all these memories.

You mentioned the
quantum field.

It's almost like the
information is stored

there in the quantum
field, and the brain is

really just a reducing
mechanism to, to access it.

There are a lot of
studies that are

starting to suggest that.

That memory somehow exists
in the quantum field and we

don't know how to access it.

But some people do access it
accidentally most of the time.

One of the things that
happened to me after

the lightning was I
got contacted by Darryl

Treeford, who's a physician.

And Dr.

Treeford is a specialist in
savant's and he has a whole

group of people with similar
stories to mine, but they've

all had different injuries.

They've either gotten
hit with something in the

head, they had surgery, any
number of different things,

but afterwards, they all
had developed something

they didn't have before.

And so there's enough of
people like myself and

them that make you think,
okay, there's something

normal about ability
to get those qualities.

And I think the problem
is we just don't know

how to access them.

We know we can do it
accidentally and somebody

gets hit in the head
and suddenly they can do

incredible calculations they
had no idea how to do before.

Or like myself, you hear
music and the music's

coming from someplace.

Where is it coming from
and how does it make

its way into my brain?

And again, there's a lot
of people that are starting

to believe that this memory
exists in the quantum field

and nobody really understands
what that is exactly.

And how we communicate with
it is a whole other black box.

Did you acquire any
other abilities, anything

that you would consider
to be, supernormal,

paranormal after your NDE?

Apart from the music
coming through.

Yeah, the only other thing
that did come out of it was

that I can feel people's
energy, their aura as

other people would call it.

And it feels like static
electricity out of not having

a better word to describe it.

Everybody's is different,
and if somebody has something

wrong with their shoulder,
for example I can, if I

happen to bring my hand
near their shoulder, I'll

feel this distortion of
that electrical energy.

And so if I move down
the arm, it'll disappear.

But as I get closer to
where the problem is,

I can actually bring
somebody to tears with it.

So there are some things
that I don't have an a real

understanding of, but I have
just noticed that they exist.

And I use them as tools
to help if I'm trying to

figure out what somebody's
problem is I can use that

as a way to narrow the focus
of what I'm looking at.

I've had flashes of
knowing things that I

have no way of knowing.

I'll have a feeling,
somebody's gonna call and

the phone rings, or I walk
over and I pick up the

phone and they're on it.

But those things there's no
way to quantitate any of that.

And there are enough people
that have things like

that happen anyway that
you don't know whether

it's meaningful or not.

But these are things that I
didn't really notice before.

And when you say you sense
someone's aura, is that

just a feeling, you can't
actually see anything?

I know people that can
see it but I have only on

occasion been able to do that.

Most of the time I can feel it
without any problems at all.

Seeing it, I think is harder.

At least it was for me.

One of my other guests he
had a near death experience.

He said that he became quite
empathic so he can feel what

people's emotions are like.

Have you had anything
like that as well?

Not as much.

Certainly emotions are
concentrated in people

in different ways.

So if somebody has an
enormous amount of tension

and it tends to concentrate
in their shoulders and upper

back that will cause a huge
electrical disturbance if

I put my hands near it.

There's things like
that you can pick up.

So is there anything
fundamental about the

way you view life that's
changed since your NDE?

Absolutely.

I'm absolutely certain
that there is no

such thing as death.

We change forms but our
spirit lives on forever.

Whoever we are, we always are.

And that I'm
absolutely certain of.

We keep going through this
reincarnation process.

And at least from what I
can understand the rationale

behind it is we have to reach
a certain level of evolution,

spiritual evolution, to be
able to be able to rejoin the

source from where we came.

And we just keep going
through this process till

we have enough points to
be able to do that, to

graduate from this spiritual
density to the next one.

Tony I'm starting to run
outta time here, but I wanted

to ask, people are probably
gonna have questions for you.

Is there some way for
people to reach you?

Assuming that that's
something that you're

Sure.

My email is T C I C
O R I a@yahoo.com,

tcicoria@yahoo.com, and
certainly if somebody's got

a question, feel free to ask.

All right I'll put
that in the show notes.

And do you have any other
like a final message

for people before we
wrap up the interview?

I think that the only real
message that I have is

there is life after death.

And I think it's really
important to have an

approach to life that
is, other than self, than

being more concerned about
others than about the self.

I think it's a big
part of how our spirits

are supposed to work.

I suppose if we're not
so concerned about death,

then that's a natural sort
of evolution isn't it?

That we become more
interested in what

effect we have on others.

Yeah.

Tony, thank you so much
for coming on the show.

I really appreciate
you taking the time.

I know

you're welcome.

over there, and I'm sure
that people will get a

lot out of this interview.

And I appreciate
you coming on.

Anytime.

Thank you for inviting me.