Untethered Consciousness

Eben Alexander: There are
millions of other butterflies.

Looping and spiraling in
these vast formations,

and down below in this
verdant, fertile meadow,

there were thousands
of beings dancing lots

of joy and merriment.

I remember children playing,

dogs jumping,

incredible festivities,

and it was all being fueled
because up above were

these swooping orbs of

angelic choirs that were
emanating chants and anthems,

hymns that would just
thunder through my awareness.

Rod Bland: My guest today is

Dr.

Eben Alexander, A
neurosurgeon and author of

the brilliant book, Proof
of Heaven which details

a near death experience
that he had in 2008.

Eben, welcome and thank you so
much for coming on the show.

Eben Alexander: Well, Rod,
thanks so much for having me.

It's great to be with you.

Rod Bland: Alright, so I think
to get started, I'd like to

ask what your understanding
of human consciousness was

prior to your NDE and how
your medical training informed

that perspective and then
if you could take us through

the events that led up to
and including your NDE.

Eben Alexander: Okay.

I had a very kind of
conventional upbringing

in terms of my
scientific understanding.

My father was very
influential in my life.

He was a globally
renowned neurosurgeon.

He also was very spiritual.

He had a strong belief in
God and power of prayer,

but, like so many of us who
grew up in the 60s and 70s,

I always knew science was
the pathway to truth, and as

much as I might have wanted
to believe what I heard

in that Methodist church
growing up in North Carolina

Science was going to
guide my way to any

kind of understanding of
the nature of reality.

And the conventional training
I had at both Duke and then

when I worked at Harvard
medical school teaching

neurosurgery for 15 years,

was basically the notion of
materialism or physicalism.

And that's basically the
metaphysical position

that all of that exists
is the physical world.

And therefore, if we
can fully understand

everything that governs the
interactions of the particles

that make up that world.

Then we can understand
all of causality and

all of the nature of
our unfolding reality.

In fact, that materialist
science that I worshipped

before my coma, and I do
not use that term lightly

would scoff at you for
claiming to have free will.

Because that science
claimed that it was all

just chemical reactions,
electron fluxes, and the

substance of the brain.

It gave us an illusion
of free will, an illusion

of conscious awareness.

But that ultimately it was all
predetermined by the laws of

physics, chemistry, biology.

And that was the
hard core position.

But that's really where you
went if you believed that

conventional scientific...

Training,

which basically said our
existence is birth to

death and nothing more.

When our physical brain
and body die, that's the

end of conscious awareness.

My journey back in 2008
showed me that just

the opposite is true.

We are conscious in
spite of our brain.

And that's really where
I think all of this gets

a lot more exciting.

And the proof to
me was very solid.

In the form of the
severe case of Bacterial

Meningoencephalitis.

You couldn't have come up
with a better laboratory prep

to try and mimic human death

than what I went through.

This kind of severe meningitis
is a perfect model for human

death because it selectively
destroys the neocortex

and then the brainstem.

The pieces of the brain
that are most responsible,

according to modern
neuroscience, for our detailed

human conscious awareness.

And yet...

The medical details of
my case made it crystal

clear that brain was in no
shape to harbor any kind

of dream or hallucination.

And that's something that
I discuss in the book Proof

of Heaven, but that point
is greatly amplified by the

medical case report written
by three doctors not

involved in my care that
came out in the Journal of

Nervous and Mental Diseases

in September of 2018.

Dr.

Surbhi Khanna, Lauren
Moore, and Bruce Grayson

were fascinated by my
recovery, and that's why

they wrote this case report.

And in fact, when they were
challenged by the peer review

editors of that journal,
how do you explain this?

This is unprecedented in
the medical literature.

Have somebody this ill from,
a week in deep coma from

gram negative bacterial
meningoencephalitis with all

the lab parameters, Glasgow
Coma Scales, 6 or 7, and

anything below 9 is deep coma.

And all the lab values,
that's what haunted me,

was when I was reviewing
my own medical records.

and remembering everything
that I went through,

that brain was in no
position to construct

any such elaborate
hallucination or dream.

That's why the scientific
community takes my story

so incredibly seriously.

And that's why some people
who try to take me down with

ad hominem attacks cling
desperately to their hope that

this, their claim that this
was a medically induced coma.

They are denying the
facts of the case that are

absolutely a beautiful
gift to humanity.

And that is, no, this
extraordinary experience

happened but wasn't
caused by my brain at all.

The fact of the matter was
I was so close to death and

so far gone from this world
that I could experience

this extraordinary spiritual
journey that I had.

And that's really, to
me, the magic of it all.

And I can dive briefly into
what all that involved,

and then we can talk about
some of the details and

why it's important to the
scientific community and

all that kind of thing.

Rod Bland: Yeah, I think
it's especially for people

that haven't read your book
or anything, I think it'd

be good to understand, what
actually led to the meningitis

and then, what happened once
you were in the hospital and

things started to go south.

Eben Alexander: We
never ever determined

a cause why I had an E.

coli bacterial
meningoencephalitis.

That was never discovered.

It turns out important to
point out in my journey, I

had a very atypical feature
for near death experiences.

And that is a pretty
complete amnesia for the

life of Eben Alexander.

I had no memories of
the personal events

of my life, none of my
religious teachings,

none of my scientific
knowledge of cosmology,

physics, neuroscience,
quantum physics, etc.

None of that made it in.

I had a really an empty slate.

And in looking back on
it, I've come to realize

that every near death
experience is tailored for

the individual who has it.

That's ultimately the
reason these things occur.

But there are NDEs that
are so remarkable that

it's of great interest to
to this world at large.

In fact, I think all NDEs can
be very instructive to this

world at large because they
paint a beautiful picture.

That we're all in this
together and that the

binding force of love is
absolutely there connecting

us with each other and
with the universe at large.

So my beliefs before coma were
really strongly that of that

materialist scientist that
brain creates consciousness,

and then of course fearing
that when the brain and body

die awareness comes to an end.

The opposite is what I
experienced, and it all

started in what I call
the earthworm's eye view.

A very primitive course,
unresponsive realm, it was

like being in dirty jello.

Seemed to go on for
a very long time,

even though I'm sure I
didn't have a memory of

moment to moment, eternity
would seem like a reasonable

length of time that I
experienced all that, but

I was rescued, luckily,

by this slowly
spinning white light.

They came towards me and
it opened up like a rip

in the fabric of that ugly
earthworm eye view, as I

call that initial stage.

And it led me up through
this light portal into

this brilliant, ultra
real gateway valley.

And that's the part that's
so hard to explain to people.

It was much more
real than this world.

Much more detailed,
much more memorable,

much more meaningful.

Much more transformational.

This was an extraordinarily
rich environment in

which I found myself.

It makes this world
look very murky and

dreamlike by comparison.

Now that Gateway
Valley, it had a lot

of earth like features.

I was a speck of awareness
on a butterfly wing.

There are millions
of other butterflies.

Looping and spiraling in
these vast formations,

and down below in this
verdant, fertile meadow,

there were thousands
of beings dancing lots

of joy and merriment.

I remember children playing,

dogs jumping, incredible
festivities, and it was

all being fueled because

up above were these swooping
orbs of angelic choirs that

were emanating chants and
anthems, hymns that would just

thunder through my awareness.

And the best thing about the
whole scene I'm describing

to you is I wasn't alone.

There was a beautiful
woman sitting beside me

on this butterfly wing
and she looked at me

with a look of pure love.

Sparkling blue eyes,
high cheekbones, high

forehead, broad smile.

She was dressed in the same
kind of simple garb of all

the beings dancing down below,
but it was very colorful.

Really, colors
beyond the rainbow.

And when I say this world
is ultra real, do understand

this is the realm where

people would have life
reviews, where your life

would flash before your eyes
and you would relive the

events, not just remembering.

And also those events in
a life review are commonly

described as being from the
perspective of others around

us who were impacted by our
actions and even our thoughts.

In other words, your life
review is a beautiful

example of how we're
all in this together.

And if you hurt another,
you're hurting yourself.

If you hand out a lot
of pain and suffering...

In the life review, you have
to be on the receiving end of

that to see what it felt like.

And the life review is
there to serve as a course

correction, because another
major part of the scientific

evidence for the reality
of this broader concept

of mind we're talking
about is the scientific

evidence for reincarnation.

And the University of
Virginia, which is about

12 miles from where I'm
sitting right now, For

the last six decades,

they've studied more
than 2, 700 cases of

past life memories in
children indicative of

reincarnation, of which 1,
700 of the cases were solved.

That is, they found
the person who was

described by the child.

So this much bigger vision
of consciousness is one that

is here in the scientific
community and certainly

in my very neighborhood.

Now, I was discovering
this for my own on this

extraordinary journey.

And this beautiful message
that came to me from

this lovely spiritual
guide, the guardian angel

on the butterfly wing.

was you are deeply loved
and cherished forever.

You have nothing to fear.

You are richly cared for.

And I cannot tell you how
reassuring and validating

that was in that moment.

And it was around that
time that I witnessed

the soft summer breeze
that blew through.

And that breeze essentially
changed everything because

given my complete amnesia and
complete lack of knowledge

or of any kind of history of
connection with human thought

that summer breeze was my
first awareness of that

infinitely loving God force.

And I came back from this
incredible journey realizing

that it doesn't matter if
you want to call that deity

God or Allah, Brahman,
Vishnu, Jehovah, Yahweh,

whatever the words are.

The truth of the matter
is more than 90% of near

death experiencers from all
different faith traditions

and, many who were previously
agnostic or atheistic.

More than 90 percent of near
death experiencers through

thousands of years come back

believing in an infinitely
powerful, loving force at

the core of the universe.

So the reality of that
presence defies the fact that

we can't necessarily nail
it down with a proper label.

That's why it's so
important to have your

own practice of centering
prayer, going within,

meditation, what have you,

to develop your own
personal relationship

with that loving force.

Now for me on this journey,
it turns out that those

angelic choirs provided
yet another portal to a

higher and higher level.

And what I remember
is that all of four

dimensional space time,
the kind of lowest material

realm, collapsed down.

And then this entire spiritual
region, this gateway valley

as I called it, that same
realm where you can experience

birth, death, everything in
between, You have left time.

You are no longer just
remembering events

that occurred in a
lifetime, in Earth time.

You're reliving those events.

That's the power
of that realm.

But given my amnesia, I
was not to have an Eben

Alexander life review.

I had life reviews presented
to me in two very powerful

fashions in the next
stages of this journey.

Because with these angelic
choirs providing yet another

portal, All of that deep time,
as I call it or meta time.

That's the causal relationship
that occurs in that spiritual

realm, which is of complete
order of magnitude beyond what

we experience here, because
you can have all the events

of your life simultaneously
presented in that deep time.

Very important concept,
because this explains a lot

about How reincarnation and
all that can still honor

that our loved ones
will absolutely be

there when we pass over.

To help welcome us
into that realm.

And people are often concerned
when they hear all this

evidence for reincarnation.

Oh no, what if
they've reincarnated

before I get there?

No.

I can tell you from
my experience that

just doesn't happen.

That's the importance of
understanding this different

temporal layer in that in that
mystical, spiritual realm.

But what that led me up into
is what I call the core.

And I remember seeing all
of, even that spiritual

realm collapsing down until

what I saw was this
complex over sphere that

was there for teaching,
and to me that over sphere

was basically the universe
throughout all of eternity,

but it showed me the
much bigger aspects of

the universe that I was
trying to understand.

And in that core
realm, all dualities.

Come into oneness,
masculine, feminine, light,

dark, good, evil, etc.

All the different
dualities of this world

come together into oneness
in that beautiful realm.

And I also came to see
that the very source of

our conscious awareness.

is that deity, that
God force of pure love.

And it's important to
understand that even though

you may see apparent conflict
and, apparent darkness

and evil and all that kind
of on the way into this,

as you get closer and closer
to that spiritual core of

what I call the core you're
getting to a level where

it's pure oneness and love.

In other words the apparent
darkness and evil isn't

even part of the original
sourcing equation.

This is all part of that
one mind and we're sharing

the dreams of that one mind
in all of this process.

Now, it turns out that
in that core realm, I

was taught many things.

The two visions I did have
that showed me both life

reviews and reincarnation,
even though I couldn't

have an Eben Alexander life
Review because of my amnesia.

One I call the
flying fish version.

That's as it sounds.

The flying fish
down in the water.

That's our bodies in
the material realm.

Dumbed down, not knowing all
that our higher souls know

about the bigger picture.

But then when we
die, we come back up.

Reunite with higher soul, with
souls of departed loved ones.

Go through life reviews.

Plan next incarnations
for further growth.

learning and teaching,
and then dive back in.

The second vision was on a
separate passage through the

Core Realm, and that was what
I call the Indra's Net vision.

That was far grander,
showing me life reviews

and reincarnation and
a profound kind of

Indra's Net, this higher
dimensional network of web,

where basically everything we
did had influences that would

It would influence out into
the universe and you could see

how we were all interconnected
in this Indra's net vision.

And it was that binding force
of love that was so important.

Now it turns out, again, I
would tumble back down into

that earthworm eye view.

I cycled through these
realms several times.

I learned that by remembering
the musical notes, the melody,

that's how I could conjure
up all these light portals.

And always many lessons
I've spent 15 years since

my coma, unpacking those
lessons in meditation.

I use sacred acoustics,
which is a very powerful form

of differential frequency
brainwave entrainment.

And I use that form of
meditation basically daily.

And a lot of that effort
is not just to recover

memories from my NDE,

but to develop ongoing
relationships with the

guides and the force and
that incredible love force

at the core of that realm.

Every bit of that is what
I've been doing for the

15 years since with this
program of meditation.

It turns out, as I
said, I would cycle

through those levels.

Every time I entered into
the core realm, I was told,

you're not here to stay.

You'll be going back.

I'd even come to believe that
going back, just going back

to that earth worm eye view.

And for me, that was
no problem, because I'd

learned that by remembering

the musical notes and the
melody in my mind, I could

conjure up that light portal.

And that would always take
me up to the next level.

But there came a point
where, as they promised me,

you're not here to stay,
I could no longer conjure

up the light portal up
into that gateway valley.

To say I was sad at that point
would be an understatement.

But I also knew that I could
trust in the universe, that

I would be taken care of.

And it was at that point that
I saw thousands of beings

going off around me, off into
the distance, many with heads

bowed like that holding arms
up, some holding candles.

And this murmuring energy
was coming back from them.

The surprising thing was I
now tumbled back down to this

murky kind of earthworm's eye
view, that primitive level

where everything started.

And previously
the incredible...

Joy and bliss to see I had
experienced in the spiritual

realms, in the gateway valley
and the core realm was not

really present in that lowest
level in the earthworm's

eye view, but now it was.

Because of this murmuring
energy of these people around

me thousands of them, and when
I labeled all that, when I

came back to this world and
was writing it all up, I said

that those were prayers, and
that was the power of prayer

leading me back to this world.

And the final stage of my
near death experience were the

six faces I saw at the
very end of it all.

They were very important.

Five of them were physically
present in the ICU room the

last 24 hours I was in coma.

Now, there were many other
family and friends who had

been there earlier in the
week who I had no memory of.

And what this helped me to
realize is the vast majority

of my coma journey had to
happen between days one

and four or one in five
of the seven day coma.

And I explained that timing
in the book Proof of Heaven

and then elaborate more
on that in the book Living

in a Mindful Universe.

But it was really the last
of those faces that I would

say is the most important.

That was the one that
actually compelled me to

come back to this world.

It was of a ten year old boy.

Now, I didn't recognize
him at this time, but

it was my son, Bond.

Great name.

It turns out that that
he was 10 years old.

They'd given him the
sugar coated version of

the story, Dad's sick.

Then he saw Dad on a
ventilator, unresponsive,

worried about that.

And they hadn't told
him the worst news, but

it was day 7 of coma.

And the doctors held a family
conference where they said

I'd gone from a 10 percent
chance of survival down to 2%.

But with no chance
of recovery.

And they were recommending
stopping the antibiotics and

taking me off the ventilator.

Just letting nature
take its course.

But turns out Bond
overheard all that and

now realized it was much
worse than he'd been told.

So he came running down
the hallway and I was lying

there on my ventilator.

Eyes taped shut, he
pulled open my eyelids.

One eye looking over
there, one eye over there,

neither pupil working.

Any of your audience in
medicine will know that's

a horrible picture.

And I promise you, I did
not hear him with my ears, I

didn't see him with my eyes.

But somehow, his pleading
with me, Daddy, you're

going to be okay, Daddy,
you're going to be okay.

Even though I didn't
understand the words, but it

was that emotional engagement
of our connection, that

pleading, that somehow I had
to be back there for him.

Whatever that meant.

And it's the toughest
thing I've ever done

in my entire existence.

Crawling out of there.

I often use the analogy,

it was like crawling out
of a gravel pit where every

time you reach up, everything
collapses in around you.

I had to do it.

I had to get back for him.

In some way, I was able to
come back to this world and,

the next thing I knew, I'm
fighting the ventilator and

they pulled the tube out.

I said, thank you.

Now, my brain was still
very addled by this

serious infection.

And even though I was
coming around, it was

still deeply involved.

And in fact, over the next 36
hours, after they took out the

breathing tube, I was in and
out of a paranoid, delusional,

psychotic nightmare

that I described briefly in
the book, Proof of Heaven.

But it was wild.

And the interesting thing
about it was that those

memories as much as they
seemed a little more real

than a normal nightmare, I
knew they were delusional

while it was happening.

And also those memories
faded within about two weeks.

Whereas the deep
coma memories,

the spiritual journey
that I describe in the

book, that incredible
richness, that, those

memories are as sharp now

as if the whole thing
happened yesterday.

Gigantic difference, and
there have been papers,

scientific papers, written
about the resilience and

stability of NDE memories
that corroborates this.

These are not,
hallucinations or dreams.

These are profound
memories that rival real,

lived events in terms of
their kind of tenacity

and their staying power.

People would often come up
to me after I gave a talk

and share something with me
and they'd say, I never told

anybody this before, but,

and then they'd share an
after death communication or a

deathbed vision, a near death
experience, what have you.

Might have happened
50 years ago.

But they remember it
perfectly because these

things transform your lives.

They're incredibly rich
dives into the nature of

reality that's much grander
than what we normally assume

to be our human condition.

And they're much more
indicators of kind of

the spiritual nature
of the universe and our

spiritual nature as beings.

And by spiritual, I simply
mean interconnected through

that mental layer and also
with a shared meaning and

purpose, because that's
ultimately what emerges

from near death experiences
and from a broad review

of this literature.

At any rate, over two months,

all my memories returned.

That was shocking.

In fact, in our book, Living
in a Mindful Universe,

Karen and I talk about
how memories are not

even stored in the brain.

It's something that
neurosurgeons have

suspected for a long
time that was false.

And yet it's such a nail in
the coffin of materialist

neuroscience that it's
not often discussed.

And yet, if you go back to

Wilder Penfield, the renowned
Canadian neurosurgeon who

wrote a book in 1975, Mystery
of the Mind, he makes it

very clear that consciousness

is not something that
you can simply explain as

a result of brain work.

And in fact, through his
career, he went through,

as a neuroscientist, as a
neurosurgeon, working on awake

patients with electrodes.

I did a lot of those
operations myself.

But Penfield...

Basically concluded that
memories were not to be stored

anywhere in the neocortex.

Now, of course, there
was enough materialism

still around in 75, that
he thought you got to put

it somewhere, so I guess
it's in the brainstem.

But when you hear all these
reincarnation stories in the

modern literature, you realize
those memories are not being

stored in any brain at all.

80 percent of the
reincarnation cases

are not related.

So there's no way to
even postulate, a DNA

connection or heredity
when 80 percent of them are

not from the same family.

But in other words,

we need a much bigger model
to explain consciousness and

memory than the simplistic
and outmoded model that

the physical brain somehow
is storing those memories.

And so I've spent the 15 years
since my coma working with

scientists around the world.

And this includes if people
wanna go check out the

groups that I work with.

Go to scientific and
medical.net or go to

galileo commission.org.

Those are both scientific
groups that I've worked

with for a while.

And they are coming up with
models of reality that go far

beyond the simplistic and.

Basically, paltry fiction
of materialism that pretends

that only the physical
world exists and that we

don't even have free will.

There's obviously much more
that we can learn about the

human condition from all
this, but it really implies

that we're all eternal
souls and we're all working

together on this kind of
evolution of consciousness.

That's basically where
my NDE has taken me

and I'd like to...

Address any questions or
comments and get deeper

into it all with you.

Rod Bland: So when you came
back, or I guess when you

re regained consciousness
was it like when you were

on the other side, so
you didn't know who you

were as Eben Alexander,
but you had this memory

of where you'd just been?

Eben Alexander: All I
remembered when I came

back to this world, when I
was waking up on that ICU

bed was where I had been.

That was the only experience
of my, in my memory, period.

That was it.

But I very quickly was
regaining language, literally

within hours of waking up and
starting to recognize those

loved ones at the bedside.

Initially I was very confused
about them and very confused

about a lot of things.

But I quickly, within hours, a
day or two, started recovering

plenty of memories of those
relationships to start putting

it all back in context.

But, this new Eben Alexander
was one who had been through

something quite astonishing
and completely unexpected

based on my prior worldview.

I was also very busy trying
to tell my doctors about

this, what had happened to
me, and they would just pat

me on the back and say your
brain was soaking in pus.

We don't have any idea how
you're even coming back to us.

You can forget about it
because a dying brain

plays all kinds of tricks.

Okay, I believe my doctors,
I should forget about it,

but I wanted to write it
all down because it was such

a fascinating experience.

And in fact, by the time I
got out of the hospital a

few weeks later, it was two
days before Thanksgiving,

Now, I remember my older son,
Evan IV, who was majoring in

neuroscience in college at the
time, and he had been there

during part of my coma, so
he knew just how ill I was.

In fact, he thought they
lost me but he had gone back

to school after I started
waking up took some exams,

and then he came home,
and he drove overnight

to surprise me.

He'd heard that I was
staying up all night

because I couldn't sleep

because I was so energized
by the spiritual experience.

And he drove overnight.

He came home the day
before Thanksgiving,

gave me a big hug.

And he told me much later
that it was like when he gave

me that hug, like there was
a light shining within me

that I was far more present
than I'd ever been before.

And I remember telling
him, it was all way

too real to be real.

That's the way I,
that ultra reality.

That's how I put it into
words because I always

believe in my doctors.

Trick of the dying brain,

but I had not yet begun to
review my medical records.

That was weeks and months
into the future, and as I did

that, I started realizing no

this brain was not
there creating some wild

hallucination or dream
because this brain was

far too damaged.

It could not have done
that and that of course,

as I said, is why the
scientific community takes

my story so seriously,

but the the reality that
was coming to me is all the

memories started coming back.

And in fact, the memories
of my distant past life or

distant early life in this
body were more complete than

they had been before the coma.

I figured that out with
conversations with family

and friends about certain
things that occurred

way back in early life.

And realized that those
details were clearer in

my memory after the coma
than they had been before.

So it was a beautiful
example of how our brain

serves as an interface.

It's a filter to that
primordial consciousness.

And it accesses memories
and it accesses this kind of

lifeline of our existence.

But ultimately the brain
is not the creator of

that conscious awareness.

The universe is
conscious, essentially.

That's what this is teaching
us in a very deep fashion.

The very same consciousness
that came up with the Big Bang

and so many other, aspects
of our emerging reality.

That is the consciousness we
share, that God force is one.

At the deepest levels of our
journeys, we find that is

the source of our conscious
awareness and that we

all have the same source.

So it's all shared.

That's why this notion of
the life of you as being

the golden rule written
into the fabric of the

universe is so important.

If you hurt others, you're
hurting yourself, and

the more the deep lesson
of NDE's of this oneness

and this binding force of
love can come to fruition,

the more harmonious and
prosperous this world

will be for all of our
fellow sentient beings.

Rod Bland: Now, I think
I remember the lady on

the butterfly on the
butterfly wing, there's a

special certificates there.

Could you tell us
more about that?

Eben Alexander: I'll
tell you a little bit.

I don't want to have to
give out a spoiler alert for

people who haven't read the

Rod Bland: that's
a good point.

Eben Alexander: it's a...

It's a fantastic,

that's one of the reasons
people absolutely love that

book, plus it, the book Proof
of Heaven, and it's also a

reason that so many people
contacted me because it, it

reawakened in them memories
of their own journeys.

Of things that had happened to
them that they had suppressed,

between lives, what have you.

But yes, that is
an important point.

It has a lot to do with
kind of the overall

challenge of my life.

And that has to do with the
fact that I was adopted.

I tell a lot of that story
in the book, Proof of Heaven.

I was put up for adoption
by my 16 year old unwed

mother at age 11 days.

I was basically taken by
social services because

of failure to thrive.

I went on a hunger
strike, which babies that

are not wanted by their
mothers often will do.

And so social services had
taken me on and my birth

mother could no longer claim
me after that Christmas

break when they had taken me.

But she wasn't willing to
sign the papers to give me up.

So I basically got stuck in
purgatory in this baby dorm

in Greensboro, North Carolina
for four months until my

birth mother was willing to
sign the papers to let me go.

And then I couldn't
have been luckier.

I couldn't have been adopted
into a better family.

a loving family that honored
all my hopes and dreams.

I had three sisters
in that family.

The older one was adopted.

The younger two were
the biological children

of my adopted parents.

But the important thing
is I went through most

of my life not knowing
about anything of the

details of that connection.

And there was a deep kind
of subconscious worry.

And I was not conscious of
this, but it was operative

at a subconscious level.

that maybe I wasn't
even worthy of love.

And I think that affected
a lot of my relationships

with people and whether or
not I could trust the world.

And in

so many ways, this whole
journey of working towards

my NDE and then beyond was
part of the sole journey of

answering that question of
whether or not I was worthy

of love in this universe.

And what I will tell you
in terms of answering

your question is that I
finally met my birth family

a year before my coma.

That also that story's all
told in proof of Heaven.

And that was a
beautiful reunion.

I felt a huge part of my
past had now been locked

into place and I now
understood so much more.

It started me on a pathway
of understanding the answer

to that question, whether
or not I was loved, but I

needed the n D E to fully
answer that question, and

that's why I dove in deep

and in fact that beautiful
guardian angel had to be

somewhat important in my life.

And it turns out that she was,

and that had to do with
that birth family and a

sister that I never knew.

I won't go into any
more detail than that.

But suffice it to say,
it was a mind bender that

shocked me to my knees when
I did figure it all out.

And it also proved to me
the reality of my journey

in a very strong fashion.

I already knew all of this
seemed way too real to

be real, but then to fit
it all into my life in a

meaningful and powerful
way was extraordinary.

And that was the gift.

Rod Bland: People often
use that description is

it's more real than real.

And I've had a single
out of body experience.

And when I try to explain
to people and they go, okay

well, you sure you weren't
dreaming and said well,

I, you know, when you're
dreaming, but you really know

when you're dreaming after
you've had a different kind

of experience like an NDE
or an OBE because there's

this essence of reality to
it that just doesn't exist

in our present reality and
it's really hard to explain.

It's just one of those
things you have to experience

and then you get it, but
otherwise it's really just a

concept that's quite foreign.

Eben Alexander: I think you're
exactly right, and that's

why a lot of people were
attracted to Proof of Heaven.

There were thousands of people
who wrote to me after that

book came out sharing, how
that had awakened in them a

sense of a similar journey
and a bigger existence.

As you say it's hard to
put your finger on it.

It's certainly way beyond
the linguistic description

of these journeys.

But it has more to do with
kind of their overwhelming

power of of reliving these
events and getting this

much richer, deeper sense of
connection with the universe.

It's a very beautiful lesson
in actually existing to go

through these kinds of things.

And then come back to this
world and have that as a

touch point as a, a mile
post that you contacted.

Bathing in that ocean of
consciousness is something

that always can serve me well
in terms of these journeys.

And I know when I present
this to other NDEers, for

example that's especially
when that heart resonance

of understanding comes
out and you realize

that the communication
goes far beyond just our

language and our words.

There's something much
deeper about our connections,

especially in sharing these
kind of profound spiritual

journeys that leads us
into some common ground.

Rod Bland: Yeah, there's our
senses are quite limited,

like our five senses,
they're not limited but...

There's so much more to your
experience of consciousness

than that was what I remember.

It was like there was this
sort of ongoing essence

of joyful cheerfulness.

So that's hard to explain,
but it was like everything was

really vibrant and everyone
who was there was really

happy and great to see you.

And

Eben Alexander: This is
something that my partner

Karen Newell has pointed
out to me very well.

She's become a student of
Christopher Kerr, K E R R.

He's a hospice doctor
in Buffalo, New York.

So all he writes about is
hospice, terminal care,

patients who are dying.

But it turns out that
you find the exact same

themes are coming to them.

You have reuniting with
souls of departed loved ones.

You have them resolving
some of the big

issues in their life.

If there were things that they
had done in their life where

they had a lot of guilt or
shame and they had hurt others

they end up able to make
amends and to do that

in real time with the
spiritual ingredients

of these encounters.

So the dying experience
from the hospice world is

identical to what happens in
near death experiences and

shared death experiences.

Shared death are just like
near death but they happen

to perfectly healthy people.

Often people who might
be loved ones, say a

thousand miles away from
a mother who is dying,

but when the mother dies
and leaves, and her soul

leaves her body, it goes
through and grabs the

soul of the loved one,

who might be a thousand miles
away, takes that along even

to the point of witnessing
a full blown life review

with the mother's soul,
but then the bystander soul

comes back to this world.

And those shared death
experiences have many

of the same ingredients
of near death.

And yet, as I said,

they usually happen in people
who are perfectly healthy.

So they completely
defy those materialist

pseudo explanations of,
decreased oxygen tension or

increased carbon dioxide if
somebody's body is dying.

But no, you don't need
those ingredients for these

incredible spiritual journeys.

And anybody who wants to
learn more about shared

death experiences should read

Raymond Moody's book,
Glimpses of Eternity.

I think it came out in
2011, but that's all about

shared death, completely.

And then also follow the
work of William Peters.

If you Google Shared
Crossing Project,

he's in Santa Barbara.

California,

and which enables people to
learn techniques that might

enhance their ability to share
the dying experience with a

loved one who is terminal.

And he's, William Peters
was just a guest with us

and he's claiming some very
good success with this.

He's recently written a book.

It's called At Heaven's Door.

I highly recommend it.

And that will help people
get up to speed with shared

death experiences, which
are an extraordinary kind

of extension of near death
into explaining our spiritual

nature the spiritual nature
of the universe at large.

Highly recommend people get
into learning more about

shared death experiences.

Rod Bland: That's
very interesting.

That sounds a bit like the,
I think it's the Gateway

Experience Program at the
Monroe Institute, where they

are learning how to escort,
other people who have, who

are passing or have passed
to the sort of next part

Eben Alexander: Exactly.

In fact, that was my
original introduction to

binaural beat brainwave
entrainment was working

at the Monroe Institute.

So I'm very
familiar with that.

Took that lifelines
course where we were

actually there to

help souls who were stuck,
who had died and yet

weren't certain they died
and what have you, but

the many different ways
that souls can get stuck.

And we were there
helping them.

That's in fact the environment

where I met Karen Newell.

Because she also was there
training learning how to teach

people to use these sounds

to get into deep
hypnotic or deep states

of conscious awareness.

And in fact, I was the one
who, once I listened to

what she and her business
partner, Kevin Cossey,

he was a sound engineer.

They were putting together
their own binaural beats.

They'd not shared
them with anyone else.

Once I heard those back
in early 2012, I said, you

guys really need to get
these out to the world.

Now I'm one of their biggest
customers and biggest fans.

I listen to Sacred Acoustics
an hour to a day, and

I've been doing that for
more than 11 years now.

But people can go
to sacredacoustics.

com to learn a lot more.

I highly recommend it
as a meditative tool and

just cuts the chase from a
neuroscientific perspective.

The reason I think sacred
acoustics is so powerful

is because it uses binaural
beat brainwave entrainment

to engage a circuit way down
the lower brainstem in this

ancient circuit by oscillating
left and right back and

forth quickly with these
binaural beat sound waves.

I believe that is what allows
our conscious awareness to be

set free from the illusion of
here, now, and sense of self.

So I highly recommend it.

People can learn a lot
more at sacredacoustics.

com.

To learn about these
meditative tools and

the different ways
that you can use them.

Her site is very good
for instructing people

about the details of
these various programs

and how they've been used.

And it's important
to note that Dr.

Anna Usim, Y U S I M, wrote a
peer reviewed scientific study

of sacred acoustics binaural
beat brainwave entrainment

that was published in the

Journal of Nervous and
Mental Diseases in, I think

it was in February of 2020
and basically they found

that in their busy Manhattan
psychiatric practice,

that simply listening to
binaural beats, sacred

acoustics gave a 26 percent
reduction in anxiety

symptoms over two weeks.

And that's compared to only a
7 percent reduction in anxiety

symptoms in people who had
standard of psychotalk therapy

but did not have the tones.

So by listening to
Sacred Acoustics tones,

you had a dramatic
improvement in alleviation

of anxiety symptoms.

This is very early
in the pandemic.

So Karen, with all her
generosity, It was important

to get these tones out
to the world to relieve

anxiety, especially as the
economic collapse added

on top of the pandemic.

And so she made the whole
mind bundle, which was

the source material for
that scientific paper.

showing such a
reduction in anxiety.

She made that whole mind
bundle available for a

discounted price of 19.

But she also included a
free option because she

knew there'd be a lot
of people because of the

pandemic who didn't have
the financial wherewithal,

but would need something
like this powerful tool.

And I believe that free
option is still available.

Due to Karen and Sacred
Acoustics generosity, people

can download and use that
very same set of acoustic

files that were so effective
in alleviating anxiety

in that scientific study.

Rod Bland: So there
was something that you

mentioned was EndersNet.

It sounded like
you said EndersNet.

Did I get that right?

Eben Alexander: Indra's

Rod Bland: Oh, EndresNet.

Okay.

Eben Alexander: It's
from some ancient Eastern

teachings the notion of
this interconnected web.

And that was just the vision
that came to me after coming

out of coma and trying to
describe and go through

the various elements of my
journey that extraordinary

vision of the net

that I had in the core realm
showed my interconnection

with all that was happening
and showed that my actions

and thoughts and learning and
teaching were also associated

with the transformation
of consciousness itself.

Which I believe is the reason
the whole universe exists,

is for this one mind to grow.

It's we're sharing the dream
of the one mind in this

process of learning and
teaching, and unpacking what

is possible for sentient
beings to accomplish in

recognizing their connection
with the universe at large.

And that's really what I see
a lot of this as being this

kind of expanded sense of
mission, of understanding that

we're all in this together,
this process of discovery.

And it's really all
about a deeper version

of know thyself.

That inscription over the
temple of Apollo at Delphi

in Greece, Know thyself.

And I think that's
ultimately what we're all

being challenged with.

And the interesting thing is
you find that your mind is

not just related to this three
and a half pound gelatinous

mass sitting in a warm,
dark bath between your ears,

but your mind is sharing
the mind of the universe.

And this becomes obvious,
especially in our book,

Living in a Mindful Universe,
we point out All the

different consilience lines
of evidence that lead to this

notion of primacy of mind.

From the hard problem of
consciousness in neuroscience,

to the binding problem,
the apparent unity of

consciousness, which is
very difficult to explain

in the individual if you're
postulating that it's

all different neuronal
populations contributing

in network fashion to
this bigger version.

Why is consciousness
so unified?

It's because it's
unified from the get go.

We're sharing that one mind.

The brain is a filter
that allows it in.

And then you have in this
argument of consilience all

the evidence for non local
consciousness, like telepathy.

Read Guy Lyon Playfair's
book on twin telepathy.

You realize 35 percent
of identical twins

have very powerful
telepathic experiences.

Of course, they're easy to
demonstrate in twins, but

they also occur in many
other connections we have

with people where telepathy
is real, remote viewing

is real, distance healing,
and then you run into all

this kind of category of
non local consciousness

in the form of near death.

Shared death experiences,

deathbed dreams and visions
like in the hospice work,

and then of course after
death communications would

probably happen in more
than 50 percent of our

modern western population.

In fact, it's the population
at large that's going to

be driving this revolution.

The scientific community
is catching up, slowly

but surely, but ultimately
it's people having these

experiences once they realize
they don't violate science

and scientific principles.

But, in fact, are supported
by the modern science

of quantum informed
scientific investigation

of consciousness.

And really that's where
this whole thing explodes.

And, for example, if anyone
still thinks that this

is, talk of the afterlife
and reincarnation is not

scientific, I would send
you to BigelowInstitute.

org.

Because that's where you'll
find 28 essays that were

written in the year 2021.

The challenge was from
Robert Bigelow, an aerospace

engineer in Las Vegas, who
said he'd lost his wife, his

son had committed suicide.

He wanted to know more
about, are they really

still here in some form?

And so he put a question out
to the scientific community.

What's the best scientific
evidence for continuation

of consciousness after
permanent bodily death?

And you had to demonstrate
at least five years research

experience in the afterlife
question to submit an essay.

But in that context,
they got 204 essays.

They were going to give
out 3 monetary prizes,

instead they gave out 28.

And you can read all 28
of those winning essays

at BigelowInstitute.

org And from my perspective,
you read even that

first place essay by Jeffrey
Mishlove and you realize...

We're far beyond questioning
whether or not these

these things are real.

We're now into, okay, how do
we work this into our larger

worldview of understanding?

But, the old heyday of

materialist pseudo
skeptics, saying this is

nonsense, science disagrees
with this, are gone.

Because quantum physics
actually demands...

This kind of free
will openness of

sentience that we share

and doesn't allow for that
complete determinism that

I thought before my coma
based on my materialist

scientific studies.

And once people start
reading these essays,

and if you're looking
especially for the deep and

profound scientific essays
in that BigelowInstitute.

org group, I
would steer you to

Bernardo Kastrup, and
I would steer you to

Pim van Lommel, who
won second place,

and I would steer
you to julie Beichel,

Now, many of the other
essays are excellent,

but these three in particular
are the strongest kind

of scientific footing,
I think, for defining

this afterlife question.

Rod Bland: I was going to
ask the question, at what

point do you think that
the NDE experience or other

spiritually transforming
experience are going to

inform the current view of
reality that science has, but

it almost sounds like that's
really already been answered.

Perhaps it's more that
mainstream disseminators of

information like media, etc.

really haven't caught up yet.

I think that's probably more

what the issue is.

Eben Alexander: It turns
out, there's this incredible

and unbelievable prejudice
among science writers.

They are hardcore
materialists, even though

many in the scientific
community are leaving

that behind because they
realize with quantum physics

and especially with the

2022 Nobel Prize in physics
going for entanglement, which

is right there at the heart of
the mystery of quantum physics

that defies the normal
notions of space time as

being the theater in which
this all happens from a

scientific perspective.

But the astonishing thing
is how they do not seem

capable of understanding
this revolution.

The revolution is gigantic.

Read the Bigelow Institute
essays and you'll get it.

This is all in process.

It's happening.

And yet, for example,
there was a paper of a

month or two ago that was
talking about this burst

of electrical activity that
happens in a brain, right

around the time of death.

And everybody made this giant
deal of these, I think it

was two cases reported and
this was on top of an earlier

study where in mice that were
being euthanized they saw this

burst of electrical activity.

Bruce Grayson and Pim
Van Lommel put out a

public response to that
misinterpretation by

science journalists.

That continue to trumpet
materialism as an explanation

for NDEs, because in fact,
When you review, for example,

Pim Van Lommel's own study
of hundreds of patients

who had cardiac arrest and
had near death experiences,

you'll find the EEG goes
flatline in 15 to 20 seconds.

Period.

End of story.

So nobody expects any
kind of EEG activity to be

associated with NDEs based
on the NDE literature itself.

And Pim Van Lommel and Bruce
Grayson made that absolutely

crystal clear to some science
writers who still don't get it

and continue to pretend that
brain activity causes this.

The exact point from the
deep literature on NDE's is

that you don't have brain
activity in these people.

You have flat EEGs in the
cases where it's measured.

So walk away from that silly
nonsense and let's get rid

of this stupid materialist
assumption that the brain

is creating consciousness.

Another place where this
is very relevant is a

whole series of scientific
papers that have come

out in the last 11 years.

Looking at people
under the influence of

psychedelic substances like
psilocybin, magic mushrooms,

DMT, dimethyltryptamine,
active principle in ayahuasca,

LSD, one of the most potent
serotonin 2A psychedelic

substances known.

And in all the scientific
papers using functional

MRI, magnetoencephalography,

ways of really looking at
detailed neuronal activity

in the brain, what you find
is people under the influence

of things like psilocybin.

The default mode network,
which is the network that's

normally thought to be the
kind of ego network of what

happens when you're sitting
there doing nothing but

just existing and aware
of your existence, that

network completely dissolves
under psilocybin and same

thing with LSD and DMT.

And so what we find is the
brain activity is not going

to explain those incredible,
phenomenal experiences under

those psychedelic substances.

So why would we demand that
the brain somehow explain

these other activities that
occur when people die and

when their soul is in the
process of leaving their body?

The bottom line is these are
not created by the brain.

You've got to give up on
materialism or physicalism

because it's inadequate.

To answer these questions
we need bigger models

like idealism, which is
where we go in our book,

Living in a Mindful
Universe, the primacy of the

mental over the physical.

And in fact, if you really
listen to all the words we're

saying in this talk about
NDE's and that loving God

force and how all of this
is really around the one

mind and how we're connected
through that mental layer.

You'll realize that it's
not just simple idealism,

but we're really pushing
for what might be called in

a philosophical discussion,
evolutionary panentheism.

That's a better
philosophical description

of where we're headed.

But ultimately it's
all just saying that

the physical universe
is emergent from the

realm of the mental.

And that we have much
more power over that

than we might think.

And for me as a healer, as
a doctor, where that then

leads is into placebo effect,
which is an acknowledgement

of our six or seven
decades that our thoughts,

beliefs, and attitudes
can influence our healing.

And then you get into
spontaneous remission.

And then finally you get into
the category of miraculous

healing in the setting
of near death experiences

that begin to show us this
power of understanding our

spiritual nature and
its ability to influence

our emerging reality
has tremendous power to

bring us into wholeness.

That is healing.

So any kind of physical,
mental, emotional healing,

ultimately, will be spiritual
healing, fundamentally.

And that spiritual doesn't
need any kind of religious

ingredient at all.

Even though religions can
help people get into deep

spiritual states, but
sometimes religious ideologies

work against spirituality.

Because ultimately,
spirituality is teaching us

we're all in this together.

We're bound through
the forces of love.

The best way to free ourselves
and others is with kindness,

mercy, acceptance, love,
when necessary, forgiveness.

But get rid of this sick
and toxic false sense of

separation that comes out of
materialism and let's move on

with the scientific revolution
that proves the oneness of our

consciousness and how we're
all truly in this together.

Rod Bland: I love
your passion, Dr.

Alexander, and you've given
us a whole bunch of other

like further reading materials
as well, which I'll try to

capture all these and put
them in the description.

So how about you just tell
us everything you've got

going on as I know you've
mentioned a few of your books

and just tell us everything
you've got going if people

want to find out more about
your work and what you do

and get involved that way.

Eben Alexander: People
can certainly go to

Eben, E B E N, alexander.

com to learn more

and I would especially
recommend on there, there's

a page that has a lot of
the media, a lot of the

interviews and podcasts.

There's a page with
FAQ that addresses some

of the main questions,

especially that you
encounter out in the

lay press about my case.

And then also I
would recommend the

recommended reading list.

More than a
hundred references.

Many of them have hot
links to the scientific

papers involved.

And they're categorized.

And I try to update that on
something of a frequent basis.

But I think evanalexander.

com is an excellent
starting point.

The books, Proof of Heaven,

Map of Heaven.

And especially important

is Living in a
Mindful Universe.

That's the real
proof of heaven.

That's the one that unites
science and spirituality.

That was co written with
my partner, Karen Newell,

who's also the co founder
of Sacred Acoustics.

And we talk in there not
only about the scientific

revolution, but a lot of
personal recommendations about

meditation and about doing
this journey yourself, so a

lot of personal guidance is in
Living in a Mindful Universe.

Also highly recommended,
sacredacoustics.

com.

That's Karen's website.

She has on their page, I want
to dot dot, and all the many

things you might want to do
with meditation are there.

And she has specific pathways
of the different sacred

acoustics audio files that
might be useful, but you

don't have to pay a penny.

You can just either download
that free 20 minute OM file,

or you could download
that whole mind bundle.

Like I said earlier, it's
a very discounted price now

at 19, but she still has for
those who are financially

challenged as the pandemic
leaves us behind, she still

has that free option available
for that whole mind bundle.

So people can jump
in full speed ahead.

The other website
I'd recommend is

inner sanctum center.

com.

That's I N E R.

SanctumCenter.

com

and that has a number of
different possibilities that

Karen and I have come up with
that's really through Karen's

wisdom to have that website
there and especially I would

recommend the interviews
we did during the pandemic

about a year and a half's
worth of interviews every

two weeks that we did

with thought leaders
around the world

in consciousness studies, many
of the scientific endorsers

of our book we interviewed,
other experiencers we

interviewed, and there's
also a monthly session, Zoom

session that we hold with
a lot of people who like to

follow us that's available
through innersanctumcenter.

com.

We have a tremendous time
on that monthly broadcast.

I love it with people who
are deeply into this line

of work and they join
us every month for that.

And there's also a mental
health practitioner

course available at
intersanctumcenter.

com.

That's a course that Karen
and I taught with Dr.

Anna Usom.

A very valuable practical
course on bringing this into

a mental health practice.

So there are all these
different options.

And then of course the
other ones that I mentioned

the scientificandmedical.

net and

the galileocommission.

org, especially important
scientific resources.

Rod Bland: Okay, terrific.

I'm going to have a lot of
additional reading to do over

the next little while I think.

Is there any final message
that you'd like to leave

people with before we wrap
up our conversation today?

Eben Alexander: I think
the most important thing to

say is no soul left behind.

This revolution will impact
each and every one of us.

Each and every one of us
has a certain responsibility

to ourselves and others to
enlighten ourselves about

this, to come into deeper
knowing of why we're here

and what this is all about.

And it ultimately
is very comforting.

When you face up to
things like death or

loss of a loved one

to realize that
we're eternal souls,

which is essentially what
this deeper scientific

message is trying to tell us
I think can be very comforting

very reassuring and very
affirming of what people

seem to sense at a deeper
level about our connection.

No soul left behind.

And it's all about that
binding force of love.

Rod Bland: Eben, your
enthusiasm is contagious.

I really applaud that.

I know you're like getting
on in years, but you

don't seem to be slowing
down one little bit.

So that's really
something to admire.

Eben Alexander: I love doing
this and Rod, thank you for

getting this out to the world.

I'm so glad you're doing that.

And we know we have
some following there in

Australia and hopefully
they can band together and

start helping each other
and helping other people.

And this is all about
helping our fellow beings.

So let's get
together and do it.

Rod Bland: all right
I appreciate you being

my guest today, Eben.

I'll see you soon.

Eben Alexander: All right,
Rod, thanks so much.

Good talking with you.

Look forward to next time.