Untethered Consciousness

Rosemary Thornton: And I
looked up, and over my left

shoulder, pretty interested
by the fact that I have some

sort of human esque form.

I looked up and over my left
shoulder and I said, literally

with a lilt in my voice,
I said, and who are you?

And the answer was immediate.

The answer was, you're
the image and likeness.

I'm the original.

Rod Bland: My guest today
is a Rosemary Thornton,

who is an author and a near
death experience survivor.

Rosemary, welcome, and thanks
for coming on the show today.

Rosemary Thornton: Thank you.

Glad to be here.

Rod Bland: Well, I'd like to
start with some background

of what your life was growing
up, if we could, and then

can you tell us about your
near death experience?

Heh

Rosemary Thornton: a bore.

The fun stuff started
later in life.

Rod Bland: heh.

Rosemary Thornton: Actually,
a lot of people do this, when

they talk about near death.

And I've been a writer for, I
guess, 30 years and I call it

my temporary death experience.

Near death is if you're
on an airplane and it's

careening toward the ground
and things are going badly

and at the last minute there's
a wonderful heroic save

and it all turns out well.

That's near death.

Rod Bland: Yeah.

Rosemary Thornton: and it's
true for most people who've

had the so called NDEs, I
died and got to come back.

But yeah, growing up, I grew
up, you know, typical person

in, in the United States, I
guess, baby boomer and, uh,

you know, had a very, very
thoughtful, artistic mom

and a not so thoughtful dad.

And you know, that's life.

I talk about that.

And you know, it's really
interesting on other

podcasts I've done, cause
I've done a lot of podcasts.

One of the most common
comments I get is,

uh, is people talking
about my father.

The comment I made that my
dad was not really a kind man.

I get a lot of
email about that.

It's very interesting.

Apparently that's not
an uncommon experience.

Rod Bland: It's a
generational thing, isn't it?

It's like one, one father
wasn't great and that

didn't teach that son
how to be a great father

and so on and so forth.

Rosemary Thornton: So
yeah, I've, I've written

a bunch of books.

Well, not a bunch.

I've written 10 books.

I'd written 9 and
then I had this NDE,

I guess we'll call it.

And, uh, several people
asked me, was I going to

write a book about it?

And I said, Oh no, heck no.

I've written 9.

I think it was Dorothy Parker
who said, I hate writing.

I love having written.

And I identify with
that very, very clearly.

Writing is hard.

I didn't want to write a book.

And plus it's very private.

I You know, I'm, I'm actually
a really private person.

My other books were on
architectural history.

It's easy to write about old
houses, but writing about,

you know, kind of a memoir
of your life and, you know,

finding what you thought
was a love of, of your life.

And then that ended very badly
and then getting sick and

going to heaven and getting,
as my friend Dale says, I

got evicted from heaven.

So there's that, it's
pretty personal stuff.

Rod Bland: But you did anyway.

So, um, there's a couple
of things there I wanted

to, to tease out, if you
don't mind talking about it.

So there was something about,
about your husband, and, uh,

your life together and then
something after that as well.

I didn't quite catch what it
was, but I feel like there

was, there was something
there was, I was trying to

read between the lines there.

Can you tell us
more about that?

Hmm.

Rosemary Thornton: well,
I guess the big point of

the story is that, uh,

I met him, uh, he was my
second husband, actually,

and I met him in my early
40s, and I just couldn't

believe that I had found
somebody as wonderful as him.

He was handsome, educated,
successful, uh, You know,

et cetera, et cetera.

And then after about 10
years of marriage, he, uh,

he ended his life one day,
which there was no warning,

no, no expectation that that's
how it was going to end.

In fact, we were planning
to buy a retirement home

in a nearby community and,
you know, live out the

rest of our days there.

So, uh, that was devastating.

To call that devastating
is an understatement.

And one of my chief gripes,
and I'm not going to go

too far down the proverbial
rabbit hole here, but we

talk a lot about suicide
prevention these days.

And I think that's unfair to
people like me who've survived

the suicide of a loved one,
especially on social media.

People say, if you're
feeling sad, just reach out.

Well, you know,
he was my husband.

And there's lots and lots
of people who end their own

lives that don't reach out.

They don't want to reach out.

They just do the thing
they're going to do.

And it doesn't mean it's
a, a moral failure on

their loved one's part.

They, they couldn't
discern it.

They couldn't figure it out.

So that's, uh, I think
it's September is suicide

awareness month or something,
but in, in the US, but

I've just really find that.

Very unfair.

Anyway, suicide prevention
is kind of a misnomer and I

hope it helps a few people.

I kind of think that if
you're young, it might help

you more than if you're
you know, approaching

retirement age or somebody
who's settled in life.

So I don't know, but that
was very, call it hard was

an understatement, but yeah,
it was, it was, uh, I'm a

sensitive soul, I'm a writer,
and it devastated me, and

for 29 months I just circled
the drain, kind of waited

to die, you know, I had a
financial advisor take me

aside and said, where do you
see yourself in two years,

and this was after his death,
and I didn't miss a beat,

and said almost immediately,
oh, I'll be dead by then.

Because I had no expectation
I'd survive this.

I was so sad all the time,
and I talked a lot about

the fact that in that time
period I had three prayers

because my life was a mess.

The bank started foreclosing
on my house, my marital home

that I had with him, so I
had to sell it in a hurry.

Uh, I couldn't
find a place to be.

I couldn't find a way to
get comfortable anywhere.

So, yeah, things were very
hard then, and then I said

three prayers every night.

One was, I asked God
healed me or let me go?

I knew I couldn't
continue on in that state.

And secondly, my prayer
was no more hard decisions.

I had had to make so many
difficult decisions after

his death, and they were
painful, complicated.

You know, when a spouse
dies, there's a lot of stuff

that has to be tidied up,
but when the spouse dies

by suicide, there's even
more stuff that has to be

And in my case, as is so
typical, and a lot of people

don't realize this, people
compare a spousal death, an

ordinary, what one might call
a natural death to suicide,

and there's no comparison.

Suicide widows like me,
we get questioned by the

police because we become
the prime suspect in a

murder investigation.

That's kind of the last thing
anyone needs to go through.

So there was a lot
of legal messes.

So one of my prayers was
no more hard decisions.

And then the third prayer was,
I had always been a big fan of

NDEs and had read so many of
them, so many of the accounts,

so many individual stories,
so many books, et cetera.

And one of my prayers
was when I pass on, I

don't want a life review.

I had been through
this mess once.

I didn't want to see.

How I crumpled into a sad
little mess after his death.

So, those were
my three prayers.

Heal me or let me go.

No more hard decisions.

And, uh, spare me
the life review.

Rod Bland: Did you feel in
any way responsible for what

happened with your husband?

Rosemary Thornton: I think
everyone goes through that.

Rod Bland: Mmm.

Rosemary Thornton: And one
of the stories I shared in my

book that meant a lot to me,

I was actually in another
state when this happened, and

I had to fly home immediately.

And I was a mess.

I mean, I got a phone call.

Hey, we found him,

Rod Bland: Mmm.

Rosemary Thornton: know,
it was a very, very bad

way to get the news.

Probably could have
been handled better than

that, but, you know,
everyone was in shock.

So I ended up on a, actually
a, uh, Southwest plane

headed from a northeastern
state to the south where

I lived at the time.

And uh, they had one
seat left on that plane.

It was southwest, so they
don't have assigned seating.

And I ended up seated
next to this guy that kind

of a rough looking cat.

He had tattoos all over him.

He had his hair in a braid and
he was wearing a leather vest.

And, uh, but as I sat down
next to him, he looked at me

and he said, uh, are you okay?

And I said, not really.

And I told him
what had happened.

And he said, for somebody
who's just found out that

their husband died by
their own hand, he said,

you're doing really well.

And he said, whatever happens
through the rest of this

experience, I want you to
remember that God and the

angels are looking out for
you because he said, my

mother did the same thing.

She called me one day, there
was a terrible argument,

and then she ended her life.

And I thought, wow, what?

Just from a very practical
standpoint, what are the odds

that I end up seated next to
a guy who's been through that?

Which is, by the way,
for anyone surviving the

suicide of a close loved
one, that's very common

to have an argument.

It's like that extra angst
or upset gives them an edge

to do this horrible thing.

So, uh, that's not
uncommon at all.

And yet it does leave
you with a lot of guilt.

You know, wow, if I, if I
had not had that argument,

would he still be alive?

And then in time, so many
of the people who loved

me would say things like,
you know, this, this

isn't your fault, but then
somebody explained to me in

a way that stuck with me.

They said, there's nothing
you could have done to

prevent him from doing this.

And there's nothing you
could have done to push

him into doing this.

You just didn't have that
much power in his life.

And that was
immensely comforting.

Rod Bland: Mmm.

Rosemary Thornton: so that,
that was greatly helpful.

And, you know, I, I've often
said that suicide survivors,

which is what we're known as,
are the 21st century lepers.

We scare people and that's
not just true of suicide.

That's also true of, um,
anyone who loses a loved one

through a terrible tragedy.

We frighten people.

You know, I, when, when I
had the visitation for his

funeral and, you know, the
long line of people are coming

up to offer their condolences
and hopefully say things

that are a comfort, lots and
lots of people, I can't say

lots, a handful of people
would come up to me and say,

I don't know what I'd do if
anything happened to my Bobby.

I think I'd just
lay down and die.

Not helpful.

Not helpful because the
inference is that I didn't

love as much as they loved.

If only I'd loved a little
more, I'd probably be

dead because I couldn't
love without them.

So it's, it's
pretty messed up.

And you know, people
say, so what do you say?

What you say is you,
you, you say, I love you.

I'm sorry you're
going through this.

I can bring you a
casserole on Tuesday.

You know, people
say, what can I do?

Don't say, what can I do?

Say, can I show up
Monday afternoon and

take the dog for a walk?

Can I show up Wednesday
and cut the cat's toenails?

I mean, offer practical
things that are hard to do.

That's the best
way to go at it.

And sometimes just say,
you know, I'm cooking a

big meal Thursday night.

Why don't I bring some
over to your house for you?

Because, again, it's so
typical, people who survive

this, uh, you lose the
ability or interest in food.

I lost about, I don't know,
30 or 35 pounds because I

just couldn't physically eat.

So, it's pretty rough.

So, when I was, um, 29
months out from this, I

was diagnosed with cancer.

I couldn't believe it.

I was like, you know
When do I get a break?

When does the bad
stuff stop happening?

When do I get a break on this?

And, and yet, that's when,
um, that's when I had the

near death experience.

It was a surgical
thing gone wrong.

They nicked something.

Whoopsie.

I ended up, they ended up
sending me home even though

I was bleeding a lot.

And then they, uh, They
said, Oh, you'll be fine once

you get home and sit down.

I wish I knew the stats
and I don't remember

the stats anymore, but
women are too likely to

die from heart attacks.

And the reason is when we
go to the hospital or we

presented the ER and we
say, I'm having terrible

chest pain, I feel like
I can't get enough air.

They go, Oh, it's
a panic attack.

It's anxiety.

Go home and take a Valium.

You'll be fine.

Go home and die.

Anyway, I did tell the nurse
I was bleeding out and they

were like, nah, once you get
home, lie down, you'll be

fine, right as rain, just
go back to your own little

bed and lay on your pillow.

You'll be a okay.

So I did what I was told.

I went home and I realized
I was not a okay and I

realized I was bleeding out.

I, I've told this
story before, but I had

really, really pretty
carpet in my house.

I had this really
almost white carpet.

And so, you know, when
you're bleeding to death,

your number one concern
is not messing up the

carpet in the living room.

So I was pretty worried
about that carpet.

So I went and stood in the
bathroom because I knew

if I bled on the tile, it
wouldn't be hard to clean.

And, uh.

I realized I was
bleeding to death.

And you know, I
had thought a lot.

There's a Bible verse,
Corinthians 10, 13, I think

it's first Corinthians,
where it says, uh, God

will not tempt you beyond
what you were able, but God

will show you the way out.

And I heard that years ago.

And I thought,
this is my way out.

I have been given a get
out of jail free card with

this bleeding business.

I really figured
that was the deal.

God had heard my prayers.

I could die now.

And, uh, but then I also
thought, you know, through

this whole process, a lot
of people had worked so

hard to keep me alive.

And I thought, is
it really fair now?

to just die on them.

So I was taken by ambulance
to a hospital and they made

some more mistakes there and
managed to grease the skids

to the afterlife for me and
send me on to my reward.

You know, one of the stories
I share is they gave me,

so I'm bleeding out and
I have lost a tremendous

amount of blood.

Rod Bland: actually blood
exiting your body Like,

you could see that you were

Rosemary Thornton: Yes, it
was a gynecological biopsy.

Yeah.

So it was a lady parts thing.

And, you know, so yeah,
I mean, there was.

It was messy, let's
leave it there.

It was really messy.

And, uh, so at the hospital,

they, uh, they gave me a, uh,
shot of a morphine derivative,

which, you know, if your
blood pressure is going down,

that's, that's like, here
you go, honey, let's get you

to heaven a little faster.

And it, uh, my blood
pressure, my friend, I had

a friend that came with me.

I talk about him in my
book and sat beside me.

So they gave me this shot of,
uh, of a morphine, uh, drug,

morphine derivative, actually.

And the doctor and the nurse
go out into the hallway

like, Yeah, she'll be fine.

So my friend stayed with me.

And he's, and he said, I
passed out pretty quick.

I passed out because
I'm almost dead.

And they give me a shot
at this morphine stuff.

And then, uh, he said at
one point he looked at the

blood pressure cuff and
it said, uh, 32 over 25,

which is pretty much dead.

And he said, at that point,
I, uh, I tried to sit up

on the gurney, which is
pretty darn impressive.

And I reached my hands up.

Like I was, you know, ready
for somebody to pick me up.

And he said, my friend,
the witness said, you

talk to somebody that
only you could see.

And he said, and after
that, I flopped back down.

And, uh, that's when I went
to heaven and it was great.

You know, I don't remember
that reaching up stuff.

I don't remember that at all,
but I do remember I had been

in a deep, dreamless state
at the time of my death.

And I popped out of that body
like toast out of a toaster.

It was very, very dramatic.

And having been a fan
of NDEs, I knew exactly

what was happening.

I knew I was dead and
floating away from my body.

I was floating away
in this blackness and

floating away from my body.

I thought, this is great.

I'm out.

And I remember thinking
one of my first thoughts

was it really did feel
like I'd been granted early

release for good behavior.

I mean, I was pretty
done with earth at this

point and because I was
supposed to start chemo and

radiation in the next week.

And I thought.

Hmm, that's no longer
a concern, is it?

And one of the things that
I take great comfort in,

and I'm told other people
find comforting, is I

remembered all that stuff.

I remember the firemen who
came to the door to put

me on a gurney and hustle
me off to a hospital.

I remember the friends who
had shown me so much love.

And so much kindness.

I remembered that I had
some bills due and I was no

longer worried about them.

And I remember thinking,
that is not my problem

anymore either.

I remembered so much
of my life in this

earthly experience.

And one of the first things
that happened was I thought

is I'm floating away in this
perfect velvety comforting

and comfortable blackness
and I remember thinking

my heart has stopped and I
thought how do I know that

and I thought I don't know
how I know that but I know

that's right and then my is
you know again still drifting

floating very peaceful gentle
floating away from my body and

then I thought you're dying
and then I thought actually

you're not dying You're dead.

Because when you're going
on to your reward, the

most important thing is
correcting your tense.

And it cracked me up.

And I thought, it was so
funny, I laughed out loud.

Because, you know, I
crack myself up a lot.

Talk to myself a lot.

And that was also immensely
comforting because I remember

thinking, I don't think I'm,
I know I don't have breath

sounds and I don't know
that I have vocal cords or

lungs or the traditional
accoutrements that you use

to produce voice and sounds,
not to mention hearing.

And yet I can hear and
I hear my own giggle.

And that was so comforting
to know that even my funny

little giggle went with me.

It was immensely comforting.

And then another thing that
happened very early on is

while I'm still floating,
I mean this floating, I

don't know if it went on
for 20 seconds or 20 minutes

or who can define such
things in another realm.

But at one point I felt that I
was joined by a massive, and I

mean massive, spiritual being.

And she was to my left,
and much taller than

me, and very tender.

I wasn't afraid.

I was comforted
by this presence.

Very comforted.

And I hadn't even thought
about the fact that it

seemed like I was alone until
this presence joined me.

And I looked up, and
over my left shoulder,

pretty interested by the
fact that I have some

sort of human esque form.

I looked up and over my left
shoulder and I said, literally

with a lilt in my voice,
I said, and who are you?

And the answer was immediate.

The answer was, you're
the image and likeness.

I'm the original.

Oh, wow.

That's first Genesis
26 and 27, I think.

And I thought,
how cool is that?

There's an original.

And I'm but the
image and likeness.

So that was so cool.

And this whole thing just
went on and on and on.

And I remember this piece I
experienced a lot of people

talk about the love they feel
when they have a, an NDE.

And in my experience, I
would say the most pronounced

feeling that I had was
one of peace, a deep.

Peace, because I had had the
love of a good mother, but

I had never, I had always
been very prone to anxiety

and upset and worry and
strife and blah, blah, blah.

But this peace was
almost mystical.

And I remember thinking, I
always wondered what I would

look like with the absence
of anxiety and worry and

angst and fears and woes.

And I thought, I like this.

I like who I am without
all those fears.

And I thought, this is great.

This is really great.

And I did think about the
fact, I felt like so much of

what makes me unique had gone
with me in this transition,

because you always wonder,
you know, what, what do we

take with us and what leaves,
what do we leave behind?

And I thought about the
fact that what went with

me was this peace and
this deep settled calm.

And joy, so much joy.

I was so happy.

You know, my whole life
I've kept a daily gratitude

list of five things
for which I'm grateful.

And I kept thinking, I'm
so grateful it's over.

I'm so grateful to be
leaving this place.

I'm so grateful.

I was.

I really was very,
very grateful.

And, and I thought,
what did I leave behind?

And I left behind regret, the
guilt, the worry, the woe,

and all the negative emotions.

That did not come with me.

And this experience, as I
said, it just went on and

on, and then at some point I
was no longer floating, and I

don't remember the transition,
but I was on my own two feet.

Which is also pretty
interesting, because I wish

I'd looked to see what they
look like, and I didn't.

But I was on my two feet, now
I was in a white room, and in

this white room there was this
mist falling all around me.

And it was, uh, Almost like
a pea soup fog, but the

room was very, very white.

It had white walls and
white ceiling and white

floor and white everything.

And through the mist or the
fog, I saw a door in front

of me, maybe, I don't know,
15 to 20 feet in front of me.

And I remember thinking, Oh,
I, I know what that door is.

That door is where I exit.

That door is where I go on and
I don't come back to earth.

That door is the, the
line of demarcation, the

boundary where I cross
over to the, to heaven.

And I pretty much
felt like, okay, clear

path, doing a door.

And as I walked toward that
door, an angelic being,

different from the first one,
But an angelic being talked

to me, and the angelic being
told me, and I don't remember

precisely the means in which
this was communicated, but

the angelic being told me
that if I agreed to earth,

I'd be restored to wholeness.

And she didn't say healed
of this nasty disease

process or the horrible
grief will be gone.

It was just restored
to wholeness.

And that was like,
okay, that's fine,

but I'm going to heaven.

I have a zero interest, man.

Cause you know, the
other thing I thought

about, no kidding.

I thought, I thought it
was kind of funny that I

had pretty much nothing
to do with doctors.

And here, this was my
first interaction with

the medical world.

And they killed me.

My first surgery, my
first pretty much of

anything, and I was dead.

And I remember thinking
there was a certain irony in

this, that here I am dead.

And I also remember
thinking, won't every,

won't everyone be surprised
at how this turned out?

I was surprised.

I knew everyone
else would be too.

So, as I approached the
door, I did ask, I mean, I

actually put my right hand
up to push through the door.

I was a little mythic
because the door was shut.

I thought the door should
be open, you know, but the

door was shut, but I put my
right hand up to push through

the door, interested by the
fact, right handed on earth,

right handed in heaven.

I thought, huh, something
else came with me

is right handedness.

I mean, it's just so
cool that who we are does

make this transition.

And as I did this, I paused
and I asked the angelic

being or the spiritual
being that was with me.

Quite bluntly, I just said,
is this the divine will

for my life that a medical
mistake takes me out?

And I couldn't even get
past, is this the divine?

I only got those words
out and the answer was

seemingly to me telepathic.

The answer was like confused.

It wasn't, here are some
words to answer that question.

It was like, boom,
here, here's everything.

But the answer was, no,
this is not the divine

will for your life.

But whatever you decide, If
you decide to go back, or

you decide to go forward,
you go with all of God's

grace, and mercy, and love,
and kindness, and care.

And that was a pretty
specific answer to that

prayer of, I can't handle
any more hard decisions.

Because God was saying,
actually the specific

inference was, either way,
You'll be richly blessed.

And the thing I can't explain
is that when you're in

that place, all you really
want to do is glorify God.

And that's why I paused
to ask the question.

I just wanted to do what
God wanted me to do.

I didn't want to step off
the path of the plan of

God's will for my life.

And so that was a big deal.

So then I thought, okay,
if either way, it's good.

I'm leaving.

I'm so out of here.

I'm so done with this.

And then, uh, I was given a
vision of this nurse that had

been so motherly to me while
I was still on that gurney

on that little, uh, in that
little cubicle in that ER.

Things weren't looking
good and I remember I

grabbed this nurse's hand.

She was an RN as the doctor
was attending to me and this

was before I passed out,
before I got the morphine.

I grabbed her hand and I
said, promise me you're

not going to let me die.

Because one thing I've read
about bleeding to death is

the brain consumes, I think
it's 70 percent of the oxygen.

The brain is a big energy
user and when people bleed to

death, one of the Symptoms is
anxiety and kind of a panic

because you can't reason.

Things aren't working like
they ought to be working.

So, that nurse had taken
my hand, I was crying,

lying on a gurney crying,
and she took my hand and

she said, Oh, honey, we're
not going to let you die.

We have many
solutions for this.

And I thought, okay.

She sounds like she knows
what she's talking about.

But then as I'm at this
door in this heavenly

place, And I, I think, okay,
if either way I'm richly

blessed, I'm out of here.

I'll take that deal.

I'm so out of this place.

But then that's when
I was given a vision

of the same nurse.

And in this vision, she
was sitting in a hospital

supply room surrounded
by linens and other

medical supplies and such.

She was sitting in the
middle of this small hospital

supply room, leaning forward
on a small metal stool,

head in her hands, and
sobbing uncontrollably.

And I heard her say, through
tears, I promised that woman

I wasn't going to lose her.

And I let her die.

And it was almost like
I was an invisible

witness to this thing.

To say it was a vision
is not strong enough.

It was, I believe I was being
shown a potential future.

And in this potential
future, I was being shown

the pain that my death
would cause this nurse.

Because a lot of people say,
Oh, well, did you tell her

that after you got back?

Which they were busy
in that little cubicle

trying to resuscitate me.

They were busy trying to
get my heart going again.

They weren't off
at a room crying.

Um.

So I saw this nurse in this
vision, again it was like

being a silent witness to
her sadness, and I turned

to the spiritual being and I
said, you know, she's about

my age, surely she's lost
patients before she'll get

over this, but I need to go.

I don't want to go back to
this earthly experience.

The grief occasioned
by my husband's

suicide was torturous.

The grief, the loss of
friends, losing my marital

home to what started out
as a foreclosure process,

it just was too much, too
much for any human to bear

and ever want to go back.

So, uh, then I thought,
okay, we settled that.

I want to go.

But then I was shown
A different thing.

I didn't just see
that nurse sobbing.

I felt her pain in my, I
guess in my center of my being

the very core of my being.

And it was a wave of
grief that, that deep

grief that just, just
destroys you emotionally.

And I remember thinking, oh,
I remember thinking if I can

spare one person that much
grief and emotional agony.

I guess I need to go
back and I put my right

hand back down by my side

and I was like, oh, I
guess I got to do this.

And in a millisecond, I
was back in that body.

There was no whoosh.

There was no going
backwards through a tunnel.

There was none of that.

I was just back in that body.

And when I opened my eyes,
I was like, ah, crap.

I thought we're going to
have a little discussion

about this, maybe.

I didn't think we were just
going to go right back, but

I don't know if it's the same
nurse or not, but there was

a nurse right in my face as
soon as I opened my eyes and

she said, what is your name?

And I said, Rosemary.

And she said, what year is it?

And I said, 2018.

Where are you?

And I said, a crummy
excuse for an ER.

Rod Bland: ha.

Rosemary Thornton: Oops.

The fact is, uh.

I had been gone for
more than 10 minutes,

and there's always the
question, at what point

do you stop trying to
resuscitate somebody?

And the medical belief is
that after five to six minutes

without oxygen to the brain,
uh, the brain will start

dying off very quickly.

And the other interesting
thing, because I did interview

some medical personnel to
write my book, and the other

interesting thing I learned is
when somebody dies of bleeding

to death, you can't do CPR.

Because as you pound on
their chest or you do chest

compressions, you're just
pushing more blood out.

And as an ER doctor told
me, he was very gracious

to let me interview him.

But as he said, when you have
somebody that dies, I mean,

what happens is your heart
stops, the heart's a pump.

And when it runs out
of fluid, you're out.

But he said.

Plug the leak, refill the
tank, and restart the heart.

That's the order in
which they bring you

back, which I thought
was pretty interesting.

So I was gone for more
than 10 minutes, and you

know, according to medical
ideas, I should have

been pretty compromised.

Uh, I don't think I am.

I have trouble remembering
stuff sometimes.

But the other thing that
happened, and it took

some time, I was in the
hospital for a handful of

days, but the other thing
that happened is, uh, I

went back to my oncologist
and I said, Good news.

I was healed in heaven.

We don't have to worry
about that chemo.

We don't have to worry about
those radiation treatments.

I'm all set.

Nice knowing you.

And, uh, he wrote, uh,
mentally ill on my chart.

They do these patient
portal things now, so you

can go online and see what
they're writing about you.

And I did.

He said, mentally ill.

Rod Bland: Ha ha.

That's it.

Mentally ill.

That was all he had to say.

Rosemary Thornton: Yeah,
well, he said some other

stuff and to his credit,

he and his office called
me repeatedly for the

next few weeks and urged
me to begin the chemo and

radiation and said, you're
going to die a terrible

death, you know, the whole,
we caught it early thing.

And so I had to go, I had
to find another oncologist

in another part of the state
because nobody wanted to go

against this, this one doctor.

And say, yeah, we'll
take you as a patient.

We'll just forget
about that guy.

So I did go to another
doctor and, uh, and there

was a second surgery
to make sure, you know,

but she was very good.

And anyway, she was, uh,
she was a remarkable doctor

and she took a lot of
flesh from a lot of places.

She said she had to be sure,
but she actually greeted my

friend who was again in the
waiting room, waiting for

me to come out of surgery.

She, this doctor who did
a second surgical biopsy,

he said she trotted up to
him pretty quickly, threw

her arms around his neck
and said, she's right.

There's not one
cell of cancer left.

Not one cell.

She said, in fact, what she
said was her flesh is so

pink and pretty and perfect.

I wouldn't believe she ever
had cancer unless I'd seen

the test in the first place.

So that was pretty cool.

So, you know, a lot of
people say I get all

the same questions.

A lot of people say,
well, one, how do we know

you're not making this up?

My experience was
so non traditional.

I didn't get a tunnel.

I didn't get a field
of wildflowers.

I didn't see loved ones.

I didn't get any of the
normal things that people get.

And secondly, they
say, how do you know it

wasn't a hallucination?

And the way I know is because
when I died, I was a mess.

When I came back, I
came back different.

In fact, and this is an
aside, I don't know if I've

ever shared this in a podcast
before, but at the time of

my death, I had glaucoma
and I had already lost 15

percent of my optic nerve.

Well, took about a
year before I actually

went back to a doctor.

But he said, you don't have
glaucoma and your optic nerve

is that of a young person.

So a lot of things happened
in that experience.

And there's, there's a lot
more, but the big healing, the

real healing for me was I felt
like I was given a reset over

my husband's messy ending.

I forgave myself.

I forgave him.

I forgave the people who
deserted me, the people

who just disappeared.

I was able to just
really forgive everyone,

but mainly myself.

I had been so hard on myself.

I felt like I didn't
deserve to live.

I just felt so terrible.

And something the angels
told me was that all of

the ugliness and the mess
and the difficulty of his

death had been encapsulated.

And it couldn't
hurt me anymore.

And it wouldn't hurt me again.

and that was so immensely
comforting because my

background is actually in
architectural history and

when you're removing a
contaminant from a historic

structure or a building of
any kind really sometimes

it's better to encapsulate
it rather than try to pull

it out because sometimes in
the removal of a contaminant

you end up dispersing more
of it into the air than if

you just left it undisturbed
and had encapsulated it so

that's what the angels told
me was this whole difficult

and horrific experience
had been encapsulated

and it couldn't hurt me.

And that was huge.

And as the days went on and
on, I forgave myself more and

more because I had been in
the habit of hating myself.

I've been in the habit
of being angry at him

and hating myself.

And even just breaking
that habit when I'd say,

how could I be so stupid?

I thought he loved me.

And I would stop and I'd
say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

We're not gonna
say that anymore.

You loved him, you
loved, and that's okay.

It certainly didn't
go the way you wanted.

But this life is so temporary
and I think one of the

reasons, you know, we're,
we're at 70 to 80 years before

we get to leave this place, as
my friend calls it, the, uh,

ball shaped and insane asylum.

I think it's because
we get a reset.

You know, life is hard
and I, I don't, I, as I

recall, you've heard my
story before, but one of the

things that happened when
I was in that hospital bed.

Waiting to recover was
when my friends would leave

because, you know, it's good
to have friends with you when

you're in a hospital, make
sure they don't, you know,

wheel you away for a kidney
transplant or something.

And my friends were with me
and when my friends would

step away to go get a bite
to eat or to go do something,

the angels would surround
my bedside and they would

sing to me and they sang me
the most beautiful songs.

And I, I told them, I said,
look, I'm really good with

houses, but melody and lyrics.

I'm really, I don't think
I'll be able to remember this.

I don't want to forget
a note or a word of what

you're singing to me.

And they said, this isn't
for you to remember.

This is for your peace.

This is for your joy.

This is for your healing.

This is a thank you for
agreeing to come back.

And they said, we know that
life on this earth is hard.

So this is a gift for you.

And I used to say, you know,
we tend to say, I'll remember

something until my dying day.

I know that I will remember
that singing for eternity.

It was so incredible.

And sometimes I
just heard a prayer.

Somebody sent me, I get
the most, sometimes I get

really beautiful emails.

Sometimes I get not
so beautiful emails,

but for the most part,
they're really lovely.

But somebody said when
they're feeling very alone

and very frightened, their
prayer is for the angels.

I don't know who's
on duty, but I need

some help right now.

And I think that's a
very powerful prayer.

And one of the things
I learned through this

experience is that, um, We,
God doesn't just love us, but

God really, really likes us.

And we don't have
to earn that love.

God doesn't say, you
know, when you stop being

a weirdo and a freak,
we'll talk about love.

No, you know, if I could sum
up the whole experience of

dying and going to heaven
and all the et ceteras that

have, that occurred in that
heavenly experience, it

would be three words, which
are welcome home, dearie.

I felt like I was
with my tribe.

I no longer felt like a, an
outlier, like an oddball.

I felt like I had found
my tribe and they were so

grateful to see me again.

So grateful that I
made it safely back.

So I'm really, some days
more than others, I'm very

fuzzy on what I'm doing
here because dying is hard.

It is a hard experience.

Was for me.

So, and this has been five
and a half years, pushing six

years now since my NDE or my
temporary death experience.

And people seem to think
I'm some sort of shaman

or ascended master.

I am not.

I still cry the night
before I go to the dentist.

I still have arguments
with people I love.

I still, I still have issues.

I still have occasional
nightmares, but this, the

horror of my husband's
suicide was lifted off of

me and the, the sickness
that came along with that.

was lifted off of me.

And one of the things I
was told when I came back

from this, every now and
then I'd be really, really

frightened that, oh no, what
if the disease comes back?

But one of the things the
angels told me that touched

me so deeply was she said,
these things don't fade,

that God's things, the things
of God don't fade away.

They're always there.

And I remember I was, I, you
know, the first few months

after I came back from this,
I did have a little panic

attacks over, you know, what
if, what if I get sick again?

And I was passing this
carwash and the carwash said,

clean, shine and protect.

And I heard a little angel
voice say, that's what.

That's what we did for you.

You were cleaned, you
got shined and buffed,

and now you're protected.

And you know, one of the
things I neglected to mention

is I haven't, I haven't been
on a podcast in two months,

two months or maybe three.

Uh, when I was in that white
room and walking through

the room and getting to that
door, there was this, this,

uh, this fog or this mist was
actually swirling around me.

actively swirling around me.

And I had asked the angelic
being that accompanied

me, I said, what, I feel
like I ought to be able

to focus on an individual
droplet of this mist.

Which, next time you're in
a fog, think about focusing

on an individual droplet.

It's kind of nuts.

But what the angel told
me was, um, Those are

particles of light, and
your eyes haven't acclimated

to this experience yet.

But what you're seeing are
particles of light, and it

was likened to a spiritual
car wash that I was being

cleaned, and all the muck of
the earth was washed away.

And I was told that when we
go to heaven, Some people

die with such a disease
process imprinted on their

soul that that muck of earth,
and that was the word that

was used, was the muck of
earth has to be washed away.

And, uh, I've, I liken it to
a spiritual car wash and I

try to do that every morning.

I try to do my spiritual
car wash every morning,

but some mornings I'm like,
eh, we'll skip that today.

So it was a big
deal experience.

And I'm, you know, people
like, well, you must've

come back for a reason.

I don't know.

I got nothing.

I don't know why I'm here.

Rod Bland: Well, here's my
experience of you coming back,

telling your story, Rosemary,
is it, There was, I got to

laugh and experience some joy
and I think there can never

be too much joy in this world.

So that's one thing,

Rosemary Thornton: Well,
that's a good point.

Rod Bland: yeah,

um, you, you mentioned, uh,
when you were floating in

the, the sort of soft velvety
void, you said the, you said

she about the presence did
the, that person have like

a feminine aspect to it.

Rosemary Thornton: my book
and they want to go to Amazon

and write a review, please
don't write the review that

says, God is not a woman!

That's blasphemy!

Because you know what?

About a dozen people
already beat you to that.

Rod Bland: Right.

Okay.

Rosemary Thornton: That's the
number one email I get is,

God is not a she, God can't
be a she, and yet if you look

up in the Bible, there's a
lot of references to God in

a maternal, motherly way.

Yes, it did feel to me like
God was motherly, God was

she, using a feminine pronoun
to describe God has really

rattled a bunch of cages.

I had somebody say, if
you want your book to do,

if you want your book to
be a bestseller, Get rid

of this God she business.

But you know, when, when I
was greeted in heaven and

the answer was you're the
image and likeness, I'm

the original, what do they
think I'm going to see?

Some, some, some big old man?

I mean, give me a break.

So yes, I do think
of God as feminine.

Well I'm

Rod Bland: glad
you kept it in.

I haven't read your book, but
now you've said that I'm glad

that you kept it in because
as another one of my guests,

uh, Jason Janis really likes
to go against tradition and

you know what was written
and there's a lot of great

things in the Bible and
there's a lot of things that

you could probably interpret
in different ways as well.

There was something else you
mentioned about the angels

who were singing to you.

And I immediately thought
of my friend Nikki Allen

who is a psychic and she
talks about the Seraphim.

Are you, have you
heard of them before?

Rosemary Thornton: know
what Seraphim is, but,

uh, I'm not familiar with,
uh, that specifically

as you mentioned it.

No.

Rod Bland: Yeah, I can't
say I'm hugely familiar

with them but I just, they
just remind me of those,

the Seraphim are the healing
angels and they sing.

The healing is done by
their, through their singing.

,
Rosemary Thornton: wow.

Well, that's interesting.

I, you know, that
singing business, uh,

I've, I've done, I don't
know, 60 or 70 podcasts.

I don't know.

I've done a bunch,

but for a long time when
I would share this story,

When I would get to the part
about the angels singing,

I would sob because it was
such a profound experience.

I just, I mean,
I still see them.

And a lot of people say,
what do they look like?

And what they were tall
again, but they were, um,

a human esque form and they
were wearing gowns of light.

And when they sang their
gowns glowed brighter, their

songs were glorifying God.

And as they sang those
Those gowns of light

just got brighter and
brighter and brighter.

And I remember very
specifically late one night,

my friends had left, the
angels were by the bedside,

a nurse walked in just
to check on me or take

my vitals or something.

And, uh, when she did
that, Um, I was so kind of

spiritually high, I guess,
from the angels voices, that

that nurse turned to me and
smiled, and it was a genuine

smile, and I burst into tears,
because it was like she was

looking at me with love, and
I just felt so Attuned to

love, so tuned into love that
when she looked at me and

smiled, I burst into tears
and she said, what's wrong?

What's the matter?

And I said, your smile
is so full of love.

It's just, it's just kind
of get, it's, it's getting

to me in a good way.

So I, you know, and I, I
want to live in that place

all the time and I, I, maybe
we're just not supposed to,

I mean, how do you live in
that place all the time when

you have to deal with the
IRS and the DMV and, you

know, all the frustrations
of life and you take your car

in for an oil change and it
takes three and a half hours.

I don't know how you live in
that high holy place with the

frustrations of everyday life.

I really, I really
wonder about that.

I wish I could.

Rod Bland: There is a lot
of people who have had an

NDE but don't talk about it.

I've had guests that have
kept their mouth zipped for 20

years because they're worried
about what people might say

or they think they're crazy
or they hallucinate it and

you mentioned a bit of this
before so for anyone who

has not talked about their
experience what would you,

what would you say to them?

Rosemary Thornton: have people
in my own family who are

pretty, uh, what's the word?

They discount the experience.

And I used to be a reporter.

I had a job as a reporter
for a handful of years for

a pretty big newspaper.

And if I thought somebody
was talking crazy.

I would say, so what dates
were you in the hospital?

What exactly happened?

What were your vitals
before that happened?

Who, what was the
blood work like?

I mean, I would ask questions.

I remember I was sent to
interview a lady and I don't

know, I can't even remember
how this unfolded, but I was

sent to interview, I think,
I think I was interviewing

her because she was homeless.

I can't remember the details,
but I was sent to interview

this dear old woman.

That it had a very hard life
and she, as I recall, she

was living in a hotel at
the largesse of the hotel

owner, but she wanted to
do the interview outside.

So we're walking around
in the outside and we

were under some of those
high tension wires and she

grabbed me and she pulled me
aside and she said you need

to stay away from those.

That's how I think it was
that's how the aliens,

uh, send their signals
right to our brain.

And I remember
thinking, what do I say?

Because I didn't want to
discount her, you know?

I didn't want to say,
hey, you're just crazy.

I wanted to be loving
and say, well, you know,

I think I'll be okay.

I think I'm going to be
okay, but let's, let's

move away from them if
you're not comfortable.

And I wish the people who
had doubts would ask me

questions and just, instead
of just dismissing the whole

thing, ask me questions.

Ask me what
hospital I went to.

Ask me, ask me anything.

Because one of the
remarkable things about

my experience is that
when I died, I had cancer.

When I came back, it was gone.

When I died, I
was lost in grief.

When I came back,
I was better.

When I died, I just wanted.

I wanted to get away
from earth and away

from human beings.

When I came back, I decided
to write that book because

I wanted to share the story.

I, I did, you know, I,
I guess I'm kind of,

um, what's the word?

Uh, not capricious, but kind
of disregarding what this,

the point of all this is.

But after my husband's
suicide, a friend of

mine shared this comment
with me that I wrote on

a piece of paper and I
put it all over my house.

I mean, I literally taped
this comment all over the

house and it was, God,
please help me heal so

I can help others heal.

And I think that's
why I came back.

I think that prayer is, I
hope that prayer is being

answered, is help me heal so
I can help other, others heal.

And your question was,
what would I say to

people who don't want
to share this story?

I'd say, you know, just,
just listen to the angels.

And sometimes I think you are
better to keep it to yourself,

but sometimes it helps people.

I think it really
helps people sometimes.

And I can't tell you how many
times I've run into somebody.

Like I went into the hardware
store and I had a brief

exchange with a clerk and I
can't remember what I told

her, but I shared something
pretty spiritually intimate

and she got tears in her eyes
and she said, you have no idea

how much that helped me today.

And I think, you know,
I think that's what

we're supposed to do.

I just think we're supposed to
be nice to each other and kind

and good as much as we can.

You know, there's some people
that won't let you be nice

to them, but I just, I really
think we're supposed to be

nice to us, to people, to
the best of our ability.

And sometimes that means
sharing your NDE and I guess

other times we have to be
protective of ourselves.

If people are just
after, I know, I know

after this happened, I
went and told everybody.

Can't wait to tell everybody
everything about my NDE.

And I met this one guy who
I thought he was my friend.

I told him about it.

And boy, that guy spent
the next 30 minutes

explaining to me from a
very intellectual point

of view, why I was wrong.

Why I was completely
wrong and why I could

not possibly be right.

So I've become more
circumspect about

with whom I share.

And I guess that's
what we all have to do.

Just be a little,
have some wisdom.

Wise as serpents, harmless
as doves, hard to do.

Rod Bland: Wise as
serpents, harmless as

doves, I've never heard
that before, that's good.

Rosemary Thornton: And
that's what Jesus told us.

Rod Bland: Have you acquired
any, or do you have any

occurrences like, you know,
angels revisiting, or have

you had any other sort of
extra sensory abilities that

have stuck with you since

Rosemary Thornton:
I wish I did.

I want to.

Um, honestly, no more
so than I had before.

I think I was pretty
tuned into the spiritual,

which is one of the
reasons my husband's

death was such a shock.

You know, I remember one day,
because he, he worked at, um,

he worked in city government.

And one day, He got dressed,
and you know, he wore his ties

and his suits and his, you
know, he's a very dapper man,

very handsome looking fellow,
and he got all dressed up, and

he was heading, I gave him,
I made him breakfast and gave

him a kiss goodbye, and off he
goes, and he says, I'm going

to town, and, um, he walked
out the door, and I very

clearly heard an angel voice
say, Like it was, the angel

was standing right beside me.

So it felt like, but the
angel said, prepare yourself.

The season of your life
is coming to an end.

He'll be dead soon.

I was like, wait, what?

No, no, no.

That's something
dark talking to me.

That's not God.

So I prayed extra hard,
extra, extra, extra hard.

But I heard that
message again and again.

And again, I was
like, stop, stop it.

That is not.

That cannot be God's
will for my life.

Uh, so I, I think I've
always been pretty sensitive

to that stuff, but no, I
don't have any ESP or, you

know, anything like that.

I, I do pray every day.

I ask God, I used to pray
when my children would go

off to school every morning
and I'd say, God, help them

realize their full potential.

And I kind of pray that for
myself these days, help me

realize my full potential, you
know, whatever's I'm supposed

to do, keep me pointed
in the right direction.

I, that's really my, I, I even
pray when I drive in my car,

I say, God, keep me pointed
in the right direction.

And that means keep me
from flipping over, keep

me from hitting anybody,
keep anybody from hitting

me, keep me pointed in
the right direction.

But no, I don't think I
have any special abilities.

If I did, I, you know,
I think I'd like to have

some good stock tips.

That'd be very
helpful, wouldn't it?

Rod Bland: Ha,
ha, don't take all

Rosemary Thornton:
No, nothing like that.

Rod Bland: When you look
back at the, the sort of the

events, you know, from when
your, when your husband died

and your illness, et cetera,
and then what's occurred since

then, does it seem like it
was, there's a lot The end

point where you are now, can
you sort of see the value in

how that occurred, or why that
needed to happen, and what

the rest of us as humans may
have missed out had Rosemary

not gone through that.

Rosemary Thornton: Oh man,
that's a really deep question.

I don't know.

I know that human life
is hard, and the people

who say it isn't, I don't
know what they're made of.

I don't know.

I don't know how they can
say that, especially now that

I get a lot of emails and
I hear, I, I am not able to

respond, honestly, to most
of the emails I read them.

And I always try to send
up a quick prayer, asking

God to watch over them.

And I'm grateful.

I'm grateful to read them.

There's a lot of people
been through some very hard

stuff and, uh, I don't know.

I don't, I don't know.

I, if my story is helping
people, that's great.

I don't really know that.

I just, I honestly, I
guess I think being nice

to our neighbors and being
nice to the, the clerk

at the grocery store.

Maybe being nice to her
husband when he snores.

Uh, who was it?

Oh, mother Teresa.

I love this quote.

She said, maybe we do,
maybe we can't do great

big things to change the
world, but we can do little

things with great love.

I think that's what
we're supposed to do.

I think we're supposed
to do lots of little

things with great love.

Mm-Hmm.

Rod Bland: I
think that's true.

I had another guest, she had
the life review in her NDE.

And not everybody has them.

But it wasn't the big
things that she was showing,

it was these small acts
of kindness and Showing

love to other people, that
was what she was reminded of.

Rosemary Thornton: One
thing I've started doing

because I do want to be
a blessing, you know,

I'm kind of here on borrowed
time, you know, I'm kind

of here on, on God's time
because I'm supposed to be

out of here, but I'm not.

Once a week and sometimes
two, three times a week, I

try to send a little love
note, a card, you know, an

actual card or a letter and
just say, that thing you

did for me over Christmas
was very appreciated, and

I'm I'm so impressed with
how gracious you are, and

how kind you are, and I'm
grateful you're my friend.

And I try to send those
out, just out to the world

as often as I can, just
because we're supposed to be.

It's just, the world
is a hard place.

If we can show our neighbors
and friends a little grace,

I really think that's
what we're called to do.

Rod Bland: I'll do that too.

So what advice would you have
for 25 year old Rosemary?

Okay,

Rosemary Thornton: Ah,
ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Well, I don't know.

I don't, I don't have
an answer for that.

Don't know.

Rod Bland: and how do you
feel about the future of your

life here on planet Earth now
compared to before your NDE?

Rosemary Thornton:
Uh, I don't know.

When I get overwhelmed
by life, which I am

way too sensitive,

when I get overwhelmed by
life, I remind myself that

this is all very temporary.

And one of the thoughts I
had when I was floating away

from my body, one of the
very profound thoughts I had

was, you know, that 59 years
sure went by in a hurry.

You know, it just seemed
like it was over like

that, you know, and it
really was like awakening

from a very intense dream.

And I tell myself when I get
really wrapped up around the

axle, you know, worried about
stupid stuff, or even what

seems like non stupid stuff,
I try very hard to remind

myself that one day I'm going
to look back and say, yep,

that was all over in a hurry.

But yeah, this, this
experience, some people just,

you know, human misery is not
doled out in equal measure.

I wish I really wanted to
have the life where I met a

guy, married a guy, and stayed
with a guy for 57 years.

I really wanted that.

I thought I wanted that.

And now I, I don't
know, it didn't happen.

It's not going to happen.

So I don't know.

I guess we just make
the best of what we get.

And I'm very grateful
to be healthy.

I promised myself when I was
in the middle of all this

horror of, you know, the
grief, the guilt, the cancer

diagnosis, all this stuff,
that if somehow in the future

it was behind me, that I
would always be grateful.

That I'd been healed.

Always be grateful that
it was in my past and it

couldn't hurt me anymore.

And I need, I need to tell
future Rosemary that every

day, just be grateful.

Everything doesn't, everything
doesn't go perfect every day.

Rod Bland: Yeah, let's
just remember what you

said about that, yeah.

So if, if people want to get
in touch with you Rosemary,

I know you've said before
you get people emailing

you, um, what's the best
way for them to do that?

Assuming that that's possible.

And tell us about what
you've got going on.

Tell us about
your book as well.

Rosemary Thornton: Uh, my
website is TemporaryDeath.

com,

and there's a Contact
Rose tab on it.

And my book is
Remembering the Light,

How Dying Saved My Life.

Took me three years to write.

I wrote it, threw out the
first manuscript, wrote

it again, threw out the
second manuscript, wrote

it a third time, and pretty
much rewrote most of that.

So it was a pretty
intense labor of love.

Rod Bland: Wow.

Rosemary Thornton: But yeah,
it's, it's up at Amazon.

It's in Kindle, it's in,
uh, uh, paperback, but it's

going to be out as an audio
recording pretty soon.

I've done the recording
and now they're

just tidying it up.

So it will be available as
an audio recording, probably

within less than a month.

Rod Bland: Well, uh, it's been
my great pleasure to have you

on the show today, Rosemary.

Do you have anything that
you want to leave people with

before we wrap things up?

Rosemary Thornton: No,
just, I guess kind of

what I started with.

If, if you know somebody
who's lost a loved one to

suicide, understand that,
uh, actually the American

Psychological Association
came out with a comment years

ago that said losing a close
loved one to suicide is one

of the most severe traumas
a human being can know.

So if you know somebody
who's been through that,

just Be very patient with
them, be very present for

them as the, uh, as the
people say, show up and help

them, show up and shut up.

They're not there to listen
to your own sad story.

They're there because
they're so alone.

You know, as I said before,
the people who've been

through trauma and survived
it are 21st century lepers,

and that shouldn't be,
it shouldn't be that way.

Rod Bland: Hmm.

Rosemary, thank
you for being here.

Thank you for your
grace and your humor.

And for being my guest today.

Rosemary Thornton:
Thank you very much.